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Clergy
May 17, 2014 10:19:04 GMT -6
Post by ken on May 17, 2014 10:19:04 GMT -6
Your communication skills are apparently improving over these years as I finally understood what you have been trying to say. Now, if I can get you can see the similarities between yourself and the religious leader Jesus had a problem with, my mission will come to an end. You may be correct. Thus, as the parable of the Pharisee and the sinner suggested, I go regularly to the altar and trust in the covenant that I have through Jesus as I touch His Mercy Seat. It is because I am much forgiven that I much love Him. It remains... "but for the grace of God".
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Clergy
May 17, 2014 10:50:07 GMT -6
Post by stevec on May 17, 2014 10:50:07 GMT -6
Is that a bum fetish? What's up with this lingo you use with me? Whatever it is, it doesn't work.
I'm glad you perceive to be forgiven, Pharisee.
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Clergy
May 17, 2014 10:58:45 GMT -6
Post by stevec on May 17, 2014 10:58:45 GMT -6
No Ken, you don't get to include 1 billion Catholics, you need to base your evaluation on the small number of Catholic priests. Again, the whole point of this thread is, everything being equal, pastors and abortion workers suffer from the mental anguish issues and for the same reasons. If you are referring to pastors who commit child molestation, there is some similarities. The difference is 100% of all abortion doctors destroy life but the percentage of pastors who do, are in the single digits and most likely even below 5%. (IMO) Okay, if you're going to take that stand, then I'm back to my original idea that 100% of all abortion doctors save the lives of their clients, and that's something to feel good about.
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Clergy
May 17, 2014 11:25:52 GMT -6
Post by ken on May 17, 2014 11:25:52 GMT -6
Is that a bum fetish? What's up with this lingo you use with me? Whatever it is, it doesn't work. I'm glad you perceive to be forgiven, Pharisee. In Christian terms (and Jewish terms) it is where we find mercy. You could say it is at the very presence of good. But I would be careful in judging people remembering that in the measure that you judge it is your own measuring stick. That is why I give mercy, as it is written, he who gives mercy receives mercy. Regardless, I hold no malice or grudge against you, Steve. Actually, here's hoping that you have a blessed life.
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Clergy
May 17, 2014 11:28:39 GMT -6
Post by ken on May 17, 2014 11:28:39 GMT -6
If you are referring to pastors who commit child molestation, there is some similarities. The difference is 100% of all abortion doctors destroy life but the percentage of pastors who do, are in the single digits and most likely even below 5%. (IMO) Okay, if you're going to take that stand, then I'm back to my original idea that 100% of all abortion doctors save the lives of their clients, and that's something to feel good about. Feel free to believe so. At the least, I would say that a trimester abortion doesn't "save" the life of the mother as she wasn't in any danger of death and at the same time killed the baby that was inside the womb. So I wouldn't agree with your 100% position. My heart rejoices that one of the founders of the abortion industry found mercy and forgiveness. Hopefully he will continue to expound the truth behind this industry.
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Clergy
May 18, 2014 12:48:16 GMT -6
Post by Flitzerbiest on May 18, 2014 12:48:16 GMT -6
OMG, Ken. Which do you think has allowed more rape to continue--PP or the RCC? Shall we close them in order? Percentage wise... probably PP . We must go by percentages because there is 1 Billion Catholics and therefore there would naturally be more. If you add all the tri-mester abortions, the lack of reporting incest, rape and child molestation vs how many people PP has helped... their percentage would be much higher. HOWEVER: Christians represent God and therefore they have the greater fault.
NOT FORGETTING: We must remember that Jesus had the biggest problem with religious leader who did not even know God and yet represented God. Regardless, we shouldn't white wash whoever is doing wrong. And we must also remember that mercy is available for all. Whitewashing certainly describes what you are doing here. There are two threads of evidence regarding rape and PP: 1. Anecdotal reports, recycled over and over by life sites of failure to report actual cases of rape, statutory or otherwise. 2. Evangelical "stings", where women pose as pregnant 14-15 , present for abortion, mention that their boyfriends are over 18, then skedaddle with the "smoking gun". I'm totally fine with discussing these at face value, and condemn non-report as culpable behavior. However, if you think that this is comparable to what has been going on for decades in the RCC, you are totally fucking high. A comparable situation would be recurrent rape BY PP staff, known to their supervisors, who then transferred perpetrators from clinic to clinic whenever the police started snooping around, under the direction of top leadership which then explicitly threatened to fire or otherwise significantly harm anyone who blew the whistle. I get that you hate abortion, Ken, but lumping in third tri abortions when asked how many cases of rape have gone unreported just shows a) an incredible callousness toward the tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of victims of clerical rape, a b) a serious lack of rational perspective.
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Clergy
May 20, 2014 8:06:29 GMT -6
Post by stevec on May 20, 2014 8:06:29 GMT -6
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Clergy
May 26, 2014 10:37:28 GMT -6
Post by ken on May 26, 2014 10:37:28 GMT -6
Percentage wise... probably PP . We must go by percentages because there is 1 Billion Catholics and therefore there would naturally be more. If you add all the tri-mester abortions, the lack of reporting incest, rape and child molestation vs how many people PP has helped... their percentage would be much higher. HOWEVER: Christians represent God and therefore they have the greater fault.
NOT FORGETTING: We must remember that Jesus had the biggest problem with religious leader who did not even know God and yet represented God. Regardless, we shouldn't white wash whoever is doing wrong. And we must also remember that mercy is available for all. Whitewashing certainly describes what you are doing here. There are two threads of evidence regarding rape and PP: 1. Anecdotal reports, recycled over and over by life sites of failure to report actual cases of rape, statutory or otherwise. 2. Evangelical "stings", where women pose as pregnant 14-15 , present for abortion, mention that their boyfriends are over 18, then skedaddle with the "smoking gun". What was done wrong with RCC, was wrong. Percentage wise, how much with 1 billion adherents? And why correctly point the finger at RCC and defend PP? Then, what are the statistics of PP of young people with multiple abortions? Can you find any? I'm not sure whose perspectives is skewed here and who is calloused. Rape is horrible no matter who does it. Not reporting it is wrong no matter who does it (PP or RCC). I defend neither and believe that both should be corrected judicially while you defend PP 200,000 unreported rape cases by RCC is horrible (to take a number). It would represent .002% of adherents and each one is horrible. One cannot comprehend what it is like to be rape or molested if one hasn't experienced it (as my sister daughter would know--from a non-religious person). Regardless, .002% is much less that what I believe PP lets happen along with their other faults. It is callousness on steroids when someone defends PP. And I still believe the doctors and nurses need counseling in those states where 3rd trimesters are permitted. (not to mention it should be outlawed from OBVIOUS reasons)
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Clergy
May 26, 2014 11:36:13 GMT -6
Post by ken on May 26, 2014 11:36:13 GMT -6
This is what law is for. Please notice, Clergy found guilty, goes to jail -- everybody agrees it should be reported PP found guilty, no jail -- I don't seem to find any support that it should be reported.
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Clergy
May 26, 2014 13:25:40 GMT -6
Post by Flitzerbiest on May 26, 2014 13:25:40 GMT -6
This is what law is for. Please notice, Clergy found guilty, goes to jail -- everybody agrees it should be reported PP found guilty, no jail -- I don't seem to find any support that it should be reported. Huh? The majority of the priest-rapists were never even prosecuted. Those bishops who covered their tracks were promoted. The architect and enforcer of the coverup became Pope Benedict XVI. Really, Ken--do you never read the news. You are so far afield of the facts here that it is hardly worth responding. How many ACTUAL cases can you document of: 1. Rape by a PP employee? 2. Cover up of same? 3. Non-report of a real case of rape, statutory or otherwise? ( posers with video cams not involved in a real rape aren't going to count here) I'll make my guesses--zero, zero and a handful. Non-report IS a problem, but it is not the same as rape. He'll, it isn't even the same as cover up. Why can't we have a rational conversation about mandatory reporting without you engaging in this ridiculous hyperbole?
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Clergy
May 26, 2014 14:21:23 GMT -6
Post by woodrowli on May 26, 2014 14:21:23 GMT -6
What is the purpose for ordained clergy? Why would any religion require such and by whose authority are they ordained?
It seems to be a position designed for self destruction. No one can expect to represent God(swt) and for a theist this would be the taking on a role that is impossible to fill.
I suspect what we see as "fallen Clergy" is because they discover they can not do what they thought they could do. Impossible self expectations.
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Clergy
May 26, 2014 17:06:49 GMT -6
Post by ken on May 26, 2014 17:06:49 GMT -6
This is what law is for. Please notice, Clergy found guilty, goes to jail -- everybody agrees it should be reported PP found guilty, no jail -- I don't seem to find any support that it should be reported. Huh? The majority of the priest-rapists were never even prosecuted. Those bishops who covered their tracks were promoted. The architect and enforcer of the coverup became Pope Benedict XVI. Really, Ken--do you never read the news. You are so far afield of the facts here that it is hardly worth responding. How many ACTUAL cases can you document of: 1. Rape by a PP employee? 2. Cover up of same? 3. Non-report of a real case of rape, statutory or otherwise? ( posers with video cams not involved in a real rape aren't going to count here) I'll make my guesses--zero, zero and a handful. Non-report IS a problem, but it is not the same as rape. He'll, it isn't even the same as cover up. Why can't we have a rational conversation about mandatory reporting without you engaging in this ridiculous hyperbole? Good points and I would have to agree with much of it... however, rational conversation should not include your defending PP while pointing the finger and RCC
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Clergy
May 26, 2014 19:18:44 GMT -6
Post by Flitzerbiest on May 26, 2014 19:18:44 GMT -6
Huh? The majority of the priest-rapists were never even prosecuted. Those bishops who covered their tracks were promoted. The architect and enforcer of the coverup became Pope Benedict XVI. Really, Ken--do you never read the news. You are so far afield of the facts here that it is hardly worth responding. How many ACTUAL cases can you document of: 1. Rape by a PP employee? 2. Cover up of same? 3. Non-report of a real case of rape, statutory or otherwise? ( posers with video cams not involved in a real rape aren't going to count here) I'll make my guesses--zero, zero and a handful. Non-report IS a problem, but it is not the same as rape. He'll, it isn't even the same as cover up. Why can't we have a rational conversation about mandatory reporting without you engaging in this ridiculous hyperbole? Good points and I would have to agree with much of it... however, rational conversation should not include your defending PP while pointing the finger and RCC Sorry, but repetition of a specious idea does not make it more compelling. There simply isn't a Planned Parenthood rape scandal. What there is, at maximum, is a few anecdotes of failure to report statutory rape, almost if not exclusively involving fake cases alleged by actors wearing hidden video expressly for the purpose of trying to catch PP in a situation of failure to report. This is why there haven't been prosecutions--it turns out that it is not a crime to fail to report an event that never happened. The entire purpose of these charades is to use non-compliance with mandatory reporting statutes in an attempt to get clinics closed. Why this tactic? Because non-report of statutory rape in the absence of coercion is pretty common, and therefore the pro-life "sting teams" knew that they could find it. The thing is that non-report of consensual sex between adults and near-adults is common for other organizations as well. If you were to find out that a 23 year old member of your congregation were sleeping with a 17 year old, would it honestly be your first move to call 911? Statutory rape should be reported, and PP should report it when alleged. However, comparing this to rape BY clergy, covered up BY bishops when reported by families under the direct orders of the Cardinal responsible for internal investigation (who never once reported to authorities) is just plain stupid. I point fingers at the RCC because they abused 10's of thousands of children and created a culture which protected pedophiles at the expense of children, then promoted to various high offices those who did the best job of covering it up. You should be pointing too, frankly, but you're too busy trying to manufacture bullshit comparisons in service to your political/religious agenda.
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Clergy
May 27, 2014 7:25:36 GMT -6
Post by stevec on May 27, 2014 7:25:36 GMT -6
What is the purpose for ordained clergy? Why would any religion require such and by whose authority are they ordained? It seems to be a position designed for self destruction. No one can expect to represent God(swt) and for a theist this would be the taking on a role that is impossible to fill. I suspect what we see as "fallen Clergy" is because they discover they can not do what they thought they could do. Impossible self expectations. Perhaps people serving as clergy discover exactly what they want all along - either sex, power, money, or any combination of the three. Self expectations aren't necessarily impossible under those circumstances, the problem is avoiding getting caught.
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Clergy
May 27, 2014 7:51:31 GMT -6
Post by ken on May 27, 2014 7:51:31 GMT -6
Good points and I would have to agree with much of it... however, rational conversation should not include your defending PP while pointing the finger and RCC Sorry, but repetition of a specious idea does not make it more compelling. There simply isn't a Planned Parenthood rape scandal. What there is, at maximum, is a few anecdotes of failure to report statutory rape, almost if not exclusively involving fake cases alleged by actors wearing hidden video expressly for the purpose of trying to catch PP in a situation of failure to report. This is why there haven't been prosecutions--it turns out that it is not a crime to fail to report an event that never happened. That is probably what RCC began saying before everything was uncovered. Your "few anecdotes" hardly is a real life representation. As reported in the news (WB 33 -- Warner Brothers?): www.childpredators.com (over 800 abortion locations obviously violating the law - 91% failed to follow legal rules) - I believe this was in 2002 but i doubt if anything has changed.
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