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Clergy
May 27, 2014 8:20:45 GMT -6
Post by woodrowli on May 27, 2014 8:20:45 GMT -6
What is the purpose for ordained clergy? Why would any religion require such and by whose authority are they ordained? It seems to be a position designed for self destruction. No one can expect to represent God(swt) and for a theist this would be the taking on a role that is impossible to fill. I suspect what we see as "fallen Clergy" is because they discover they can not do what they thought they could do. Impossible self expectations. Perhaps people serving as clergy discover exactly what they want all along - either sex, power, money, or any combination of the three. Self expectations aren't necessarily impossible under those circumstances, the problem is avoiding getting caught. Perhaps, which is one reason I oppose any form of ordained clergy.
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Clergy
May 27, 2014 9:03:30 GMT -6
Post by ken on May 27, 2014 9:03:30 GMT -6
What is the purpose for ordained clergy? Why would any religion require such and by whose authority are they ordained? It seems to be a position designed for self destruction. No one can expect to represent God(swt) and for a theist this would be the taking on a role that is impossible to fill. I suspect what we see as "fallen Clergy" is because they discover they can not do what they thought they could do. Impossible self expectations. Perhaps people serving as clergy discover exactly what they want all along - either sex, power, money, or any combination of the three. Self expectations aren't necessarily impossible under those circumstances, the problem is avoiding getting caught. Perhaps what all people want--sex, power, money, or any combination of the three or any additional flaws that mankind has--is the very reason why Jesus died on the cross. As someone said "there is none righteous, no not one".
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Clergy
May 27, 2014 14:18:51 GMT -6
Post by Flitzerbiest on May 27, 2014 14:18:51 GMT -6
Sorry, but repetition of a specious idea does not make it more compelling. There simply isn't a Planned Parenthood rape scandal. What there is, at maximum, is a few anecdotes of failure to report statutory rape, almost if not exclusively involving fake cases alleged by actors wearing hidden video expressly for the purpose of trying to catch PP in a situation of failure to report. This is why there haven't been prosecutions--it turns out that it is not a crime to fail to report an event that never happened. That is probably what RCC began saying before everything was uncovered. Your "few anecdotes" hardly is a real life representation. As reported in the news (WB 33 -- Warner Brothers?): www.childpredators.com (over 800 abortion locations obviously violating the law - 91% failed to follow legal rules) - I believe this was in 2002 but i doubt if anything has changed. Ken, I agree that non-report is a problem. However, the cases can't be prosecuted. It is not a crime to fail to report a phony crime, and these are phony crimes. They are sting operations being used to try to put abortion clinics out of business. Is it possible that PP is failing to report actual cases of statutory rape? Yes. Ironically, the blitz of evangelical sting operations has made it nearly impossible to search for real abuses by flooding the internet with allegations based on phony cases. Further, the buzillion reiterations of these charges on the net tend, like you do, to accuse PP of pedophilic crimes. To the best of my ability to tell, there hasn't been a single report of PP staff perpetrating an act of statutory rape. This is in stark contrast to what has occurred in the RCC, where Catholic clergy ARE the perpetrators. The solution is to educate on and enforce mandatory reporting statutes. I would support this. FB
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Clergy
May 27, 2014 15:08:13 GMT -6
Post by stevec on May 27, 2014 15:08:13 GMT -6
Perhaps people serving as clergy discover exactly what they want all along - either sex, power, money, or any combination of the three. Self expectations aren't necessarily impossible under those circumstances, the problem is avoiding getting caught. Perhaps, which is one reason I oppose any form of ordained clergy. I don't know if your perspective is a good reason for me to oppose ordained clergy necessarily, but a person of the cloth has to go out of his/her way to impress me as being of noble character. I guess you could say that I consider clergy guilty of something unless proven otherwise. I have different/higher standards for clergy, more so than any other profession.
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Clergy
May 27, 2014 15:22:18 GMT -6
Post by stevec on May 27, 2014 15:22:18 GMT -6
Perhaps people serving as clergy discover exactly what they want all along - either sex, power, money, or any combination of the three. Self expectations aren't necessarily impossible under those circumstances, the problem is avoiding getting caught. Perhaps what all people want--sex, power, money, or any combination of the three or any additional flaws that mankind has--is the very reason why Jesus died on the cross. As someone said "there is none righteous, no not one". Jesus' death on the cross is a wonderful safety net, isn't it? Clergy get away with all sorts of antics on the high wire with that net to fall on.
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Clergy
May 27, 2014 15:45:15 GMT -6
Post by ken on May 27, 2014 15:45:15 GMT -6
That is probably what RCC began saying before everything was uncovered. Your "few anecdotes" hardly is a real life representation. As reported in the news (WB 33 -- Warner Brothers?): www.childpredators.com (over 800 abortion locations obviously violating the law - 91% failed to follow legal rules) - I believe this was in 2002 but i doubt if anything has changed. Ken, I agree that non-report is a problem. However, the cases can't be prosecuted. It is not a crime to fail to report a phony crime, and these are phony crimes. They are sting operations being used to try to put abortion clinics out of business. Is it possible that PP is failing to report actual cases of statutory rape? Yes. Ironically, the blitz of evangelical sting operations has made it nearly impossible to search for real abuses by flooding the internet with allegations based on phony cases. Further, the buzillion reiterations of these charges on the net tend, like you do, to accuse PP of pedophilic crimes. To the best of my ability to tell, there hasn't been a single report of PP staff perpetrating an act of statutory rape. This is in stark contrast to what has occurred in the RCC, where Catholic clergy ARE the perpetrators. The solution is to educate on and enforce mandatory reporting statutes. I would support this. FB I really don't understand you. In a police sting, you set up a false deal and see if they respond. To pick up a prostitute, they will dress a cop up and if money is given, they jail them. The stings are proof that something is up. To say that this just amounts to phony crimes is baloney. If they were a cop and followed through... it would be prosecutable. Next you will say that the Kansas City fiasco was all made up. The counselor that got caught failing to report is just a tip of an apparent iceberg. This one took SEVEN YEARS to bring to a conclusion www.onenewsnow.com/pro-life/2012/09/24/child-abuse-victim-settles-case-against-planned-parenthood#.U4UFqV7n3ZoThese (13yr old, 12 yr old, 11 yr old) were covered. By law in Penn. anything under 13 is an automatic rape. liveactionnews.org/planned-parenthood-caught-covering-up-child-rape-in-philadelphia/If you think this is irrelevant... then all the power to ya! We would simply have to agree to disagree. Perhaps the same way you disagree with CCC.
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Clergy
May 27, 2014 15:46:28 GMT -6
Post by ken on May 27, 2014 15:46:28 GMT -6
Perhaps what all people want--sex, power, money, or any combination of the three or any additional flaws that mankind has--is the very reason why Jesus died on the cross. As someone said "there is none righteous, no not one". Jesus' death on the cross is a wonderful safety net, isn't it? Clergy get away with all sorts of antics on the high wire with that net to fall on. I would let God be the judge. He knows the heart. He is, however, a safety net for all those who come with a sincere heart. (That would include anyone--even you and me). Maybe you are holier than me, but I sure need him. We believe Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
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Clergy
May 27, 2014 16:01:33 GMT -6
Post by stevec on May 27, 2014 16:01:33 GMT -6
Jesus' death on the cross is a wonderful safety net, isn't it? Clergy get away with all sorts of antics on the high wire with that net to fall on. I would let God be the judge. He knows the heart. He is, however, a safety net for all those who come with a sincere heart. (That would include anyone--even you and me). Maybe you are holier than me, but I sure need him. We believe Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Offer some opinions on Benny Hinn and Ken Copeland. Do they have sincere hearts? More so than any abortion doctor? If so, tell me why?
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Clergy
May 27, 2014 16:11:37 GMT -6
Post by Flitzerbiest on May 27, 2014 16:11:37 GMT -6
Ken, I agree that non-report is a problem. However, the cases can't be prosecuted. It is not a crime to fail to report a phony crime, and these are phony crimes. They are sting operations being used to try to put abortion clinics out of business. Is it possible that PP is failing to report actual cases of statutory rape? Yes. Ironically, the blitz of evangelical sting operations has made it nearly impossible to search for real abuses by flooding the internet with allegations based on phony cases. Further, the buzillion reiterations of these charges on the net tend, like you do, to accuse PP of pedophilic crimes. To the best of my ability to tell, there hasn't been a single report of PP staff perpetrating an act of statutory rape. This is in stark contrast to what has occurred in the RCC, where Catholic clergy ARE the perpetrators. The solution is to educate on and enforce mandatory reporting statutes. I would support this. FB I really don't understand you. In a police sting, you set up a false deal and see if they respond. To pick up a prostitute, they will dress a cop up and if money is given, they jail them. The stings are proof that something is up. To say that this just amounts to phony crimes is baloney. If they were a cop and followed through... it would be prosecutable. You don't understand the difference between a legal entity doing a criminal investigation and an advocacy group doing a PR stunt? Ok...your loss, I guess.
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Clergy
May 27, 2014 16:28:52 GMT -6
Post by ken on May 27, 2014 16:28:52 GMT -6
I really don't understand you. In a police sting, you set up a false deal and see if they respond. To pick up a prostitute, they will dress a cop up and if money is given, they jail them. The stings are proof that something is up. To say that this just amounts to phony crimes is baloney. If they were a cop and followed through... it would be prosecutable. You don't understand the difference between a legal entity doing a criminal investigation and an advocacy group doing a PR stunt? Ok...your loss, I guess. I'm surprised at the callousness displayed of what happens with these young girls. We already have evidence that are being prosecuted. We know that they do it often with hidden cameras (you call it a stunt and I call it reality). Again... if you want to continue to defend these practices, all the power to you. We will have to agree to disagree.
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Clergy
May 27, 2014 16:31:28 GMT -6
Post by ken on May 27, 2014 16:31:28 GMT -6
I would let God be the judge. He knows the heart. He is, however, a safety net for all those who come with a sincere heart. (That would include anyone--even you and me). Maybe you are holier than me, but I sure need him. We believe Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Offer some opinions on Benny Hinn and Ken Copeland. Do they have sincere hearts? More so than any abortion doctor? If so, tell me why? You are asking me to judge the hearts? NO WAY, JOSE!! I leave that part to Jesus. Each will stand before God, by themselves. I don't judge yours or Flitz's either. The mercy of God is towards everyone, including the abortion doctors (I don't judge their hearts either), Benny, Steve, Copeland and Flitz. (He doesn't have favorites)
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Clergy
May 27, 2014 16:46:54 GMT -6
Post by Flitzerbiest on May 27, 2014 16:46:54 GMT -6
You don't understand the difference between a legal entity doing a criminal investigation and an advocacy group doing a PR stunt? Ok...your loss, I guess. I'm surprised at the callousness displayed of what happens with these young girls. We already have evidence that are being prosecuted. We know that they do it often with hidden cameras (you call it a stunt and I call it reality). Again... if you want to continue to defend these practices, all the power to you. We will have to agree to disagree. 1, Again, do you have even one substantiated allegation of a real case? You're making such noise that finding true signal is difficult. Believe me--I spent a long time today looking for an actual case. 2. Why do you keep acting as if PP is raping people? If the allegations as you present are fully true, the perpetrators are men completely unassociated with PP.
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Clergy
May 27, 2014 17:48:33 GMT -6
Post by ken on May 27, 2014 17:48:33 GMT -6
I'm surprised at the callousness displayed of what happens with these young girls. We already have evidence that are being prosecuted. We know that they do it often with hidden cameras (you call it a stunt and I call it reality). Again... if you want to continue to defend these practices, all the power to you. We will have to agree to disagree. 1, Again, do you have even one substantiated allegation of a real case? You're making such noise that finding true signal is difficult. Believe me--I spent a long time today looking for an actual case. 2. Why do you keep acting as if PP is raping people? If the allegations as you present are fully true, the perpetrators are men completely unassociated with PP. You must have overlooked the two cases that were settled along with the one that is happening today. Here it is again: This one took SEVEN YEARS to bring to a conclusion www.onenewsnow.com/pro-life/2012/09/24/child-abuse-victim-settles-case-against-planned-parenthood#.U4UFqV7n3ZoThese (13yr old, 12 yr old, 11 yr old) were covered. By law in Penn. anything under 13 is an automatic rape. liveactionnews.org/planned-parenthood-caught-covering-up-child-rape-in-philadelphia/ Would you like more?
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Clergy
May 27, 2014 19:01:08 GMT -6
Post by Flitzerbiest on May 27, 2014 19:01:08 GMT -6
1, Again, do you have even one substantiated allegation of a real case? You're making such noise that finding true signal is difficult. Believe me--I spent a long time today looking for an actual case. 2. Why do you keep acting as if PP is raping people? If the allegations as you present are fully true, the perpetrators are men completely unassociated with PP. You must have overlooked the two cases that were settled along with the one that is happening today. Here it is again: This one took SEVEN YEARS to bring to a conclusion www.onenewsnow.com/pro-life/2012/09/24/child-abuse-victim-settles-case-against-planned-parenthood#.U4UFqV7n3ZoThese (13yr old, 12 yr old, 11 yr old) were covered. By law in Penn. anything under 13 is an automatic rape. liveactionnews.org/planned-parenthood-caught-covering-up-child-rape-in-philadelphia/ Would you like more? No, that's good for now, but if you want to add more, feel free to do so. First though, I need you to help me out a bit. Perhaps my googling leaves something to be desired, but I can't find any report of this case from a non-advocacy site. Hundreds of pro-life sites have posted the story. I checked out about two dozen--they are mostly verbatim cut and paste jobs, but none of them provide a link to a newspaper, TV station or other primary source. Maybe Rainbow Trout can even help us out here. A few of the stories make reference to a county and case number (Case no. A0901484, Hamilton County), but I have had no success whatsoever in locating the terms of the settlement. If true, I would think that there would be potential criminal culpability under mandatory reporting statutes. I'd like to know: 1. Did the State of Ohio take action against the mandatory reporter? 2. What, broadly speaking, were the terms of settlement? 3. Did the settlement include admission of wrongdoing? I suppose you can see why such questions would be relevant. Let me know if you don't, and please help me out with news references as you are able.
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Clergy
May 27, 2014 19:18:37 GMT -6
Post by ken on May 27, 2014 19:18:37 GMT -6
It seems like you want to concentrate on the sting operations and not the actual cases. I don't agree that these cases limit the search for real abuses. The failure to report such an action is to participate in the same. No different than a person driving the car while the accomplice robs the bank. That's great, FB.
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