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Post by showmedot on Jun 21, 2014 6:40:05 GMT -6
I'm increasingly bothered by the common insistence that when someone expresses a belief in the unfounded, generally stated as "Well, you may not agree, but it's true for me," we must all nod respectfully and cease pressing the person to provide good reasons or evidence to support that belief. What we should be doing in such instances is demanding proof that would persuade any reasonable person that there is adequate reason to believe it to be true, literally true.
I find it extremely odd that religious beliefs with no evidence other than tradition and sacred writings and typically little or no logic to them are supposed to be granted this pass when expressed by presumably sober adults.
Would we do that for beliefs in monsters under the bed solemnly claimed to exist by adults? But we are somehow compelled by present-day ideas of good manners to accept the fact that an otherwise apparently sane, reasonable adult firmly believes that an angel cushioned Aunt Frieda from certain death in a car accident or Jesus cured Uncle Bob's cancer. "Well, I can't prove that to you, but I believe it's true."
Then there are tradition-based beliefs which generally are fantastic stories that have arisen about hallowed figures, whether mythical or actual historical figures doesn't seem to matter. Tales of The Book Of Mormon being transmitted to Joseph Smith via golden tablets only he ever actually saw or prophetic teachings being revealed by means of mystical trance states or apparitions, they're all of similar unlikelihood but with so much reverence accorded them that casting doubt upon any aspect thereof becomes akin to commenting unflatteringly about someone's mother.
It's about time "Sounds farfetched to me. I can't imagine how any reasonable person could think there's the least bit of truth to that. Give me your evidence" became not only acceptable but expected when beliefs are expressed as truths that must be respected. It's long past time for "Scripture says so" or "Well, it's true FOR ME" to get a pass.
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 21, 2014 7:30:57 GMT -6
No problem with that. I do not insist you to nod respectfully when I present a "Source of Proof" you disagree with.
The difficulty comes in the fact that theists, agnostic and atheists do not have mutually accepted sources of proof.
Theists of the same basic belief system can present evidence from their scriptures to others of the same following to discuss why they are following correctly and the other guy is in error. but it is nonsense to one who is not an adherent of that faith or denomination.
Theists can only find agreement in sources of proof among other same flavor theists.
Speaking for myself I find a bit of a paradox. If I were to find physical proof of the existence of Allaah(swt) an Atheist would accept, it would be proof to me that Allaah(swt) does not exist.
In my opinion the only reason I would have to provide proof of God(swt) to an Atheist would be if I was trying to convert the person. If I am asked to explain why I believe what I believe. I see no obligation to prove the validity as I have no intent or need to justify my beliefs to anyone except myself. I do not loose any sleep or fret over the beliefs/non-beliefs of any one who does not believe as I do. I do not want anyone to believe anything unless they have found reason to do so, not because somebody convinced them.
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Post by showmedot on Jun 21, 2014 8:01:12 GMT -6
Woodrow said: "If I were to find physical proof of the existence of Allaah(swt) an Atheist would accept, it would be proof to me that Allaah(swt) does not exist."
You're going to have to explain to me how this makes any sense whatsoever.
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 21, 2014 8:39:39 GMT -6
Woodrow said: "If I were to find physical proof of the existence of Allaah(swt) an Atheist would accept, it would be proof to me that Allaah(swt) does not exist." You're going to have to explain to me how this makes any sense whatsoever. Muslims do not believe the creator enters the physical world nor is he part of it. Any physical proof of Allaah(swt) would indicate he entered the physical world or is part of it meaning He is not the creator therefore not God(Allaah)
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Post by stevec on Jun 21, 2014 9:24:41 GMT -6
Dot,
There's nothing reasonable or logical about god and religion addictions.
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Post by showmedot on Jun 21, 2014 9:28:46 GMT -6
Dot, There's nothing reasonable or logical about god and religion addictions. Good point, which is why almost none of them agree on what is true.
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Post by showmedot on Jun 21, 2014 9:35:08 GMT -6
Woodrow said: "If I were to find physical proof of the existence of Allaah(swt) an Atheist would accept, it would be proof to me that Allaah(swt) does not exist." You're going to have to explain to me how this makes any sense whatsoever. Muslims do not believe the creator enters the physical world nor is he part of it. Any physical proof of Allaah(swt) would indicate he entered the physical world or is part of it meaning He is not the creator therefore not God(Allaah) Ah, the Muslim version of "that which is above, beyond and outside of physical existence" which I've been given elsewhere as the definition of the Christian God. Nevermind that this tells us nothing whatsoever indicative that any such entity exists, only that humans are good at imagining contraries and opposites.
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 21, 2014 9:44:20 GMT -6
Dot, There's nothing reasonable or logical about god and religion addictions. For some of us we find it gives us satisfaction and an appreciation of life. In about 1958/59 I had the same results through a Gallon of "Wild Irish Rose", playing my bongo drums and listening to Jack Kerouac reciting "Johnny Nolan has a Patch on His Ass" in Greenwich Village. (Hmm that was about the time I left St Thomas Seminary where I had begun my studies to be a priest.) Although I did not leave Catholicism until I was about 25 I now find that submitting to Allaah(swt) gives better results, is cheaper and I feel a sense of fulfillment I never experienced by other means. Gives me a better feeling than a snifter of Hardy Perfection 140 year old cognac used to give me in my Atheist years.
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 21, 2014 9:48:36 GMT -6
Muslims do not believe the creator enters the physical world nor is he part of it. Any physical proof of Allaah(swt) would indicate he entered the physical world or is part of it meaning He is not the creator therefore not God(Allaah) Ah, the Muslim version of "that which is above, beyond and outside of physical existence" which I've been given elsewhere as the definition of the Christian God. Nevermind that this tells us nothing whatsoever indicative that any such entity exists, only that humans are good at imagining contraries and opposites. Darn Christians keep stealing our ideas. The 4 Abrahamic religions worship the same God(swt) our descriptions are very close to being identical. Although some Fundamentalist Christians believe Muslims worship the moon.
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 21, 2014 10:25:30 GMT -6
Dot, There's nothing reasonable or logical about god and religion addictions. For some of us we find it gives us satisfaction and an appreciation of life. In about 1958/59 I had the same results through a Gallon of "Wild Irish Rose", playing my bongo drums and listening to Jack Kerouac reciting "Johnny Nolan has a Patch on His Ass" in Greenwich Village. (Hmm that was about the time I left St Thomas Seminary where I had begun my studies to be a priest.) Although I did not leave Catholicism until I was about 25 I now find that submitting to Allaah(swt) gives better results, is cheaper and I feel a sense of fulfillment I never experienced by other means. Gives me a better feeling than a snifter of Hardy Perfection 140 year old cognac used to give me in my Atheist years. I should have mentioned the Poem was by Ferlinghetti but Kerouac used to recite it quite often at the San Remo down in the "Village" Yep, my childhood was as a Beatnik. NY Booze age was 18 in those days. Us Connecticut juvenile delinquents used to flock to the village and thought we were "Cool" but did see some great s of the era, in addition to Kerouac and Ferlinghetti. --Lenny Bruce, Tennesse Williams, Allen Ginsburg etc.
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Post by stevec on Jun 21, 2014 10:45:02 GMT -6
Dot, There's nothing reasonable or logical about god and religion addictions. For some of us we find it gives us satisfaction and an appreciation of life. In about 1958/59 I had the same results through a Gallon of "Wild Irish Rose", playing my bongo drums and listening to Jack Kerouac reciting "Johnny Nolan has a Patch on His Ass" in Greenwich Village. (Hmm that was about the time I left St Thomas Seminary where I had begun my studies to be a priest.) Although I did not leave Catholicism until I was about 25 I now find that submitting to Allaah(swt) gives better results, is cheaper and I feel a sense of fulfillment I never experienced by other means. Gives me a better feeling than a snifter of Hardy Perfection 140 year old cognac used to give me in my Atheist years. Please accept the following analogy with a sense of humor. I know a woman who married the husband of the woman her husband cheated with and later married. My friend referred to tne exchange as "switchin bitches". Everyone, including the children, found some happiness along the way. We survive as best we can, despite, and no doubt with belief in god and religion. This sense of fulfillment proves nothing concerning god.
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Post by stevec on Jun 21, 2014 10:50:53 GMT -6
The 4 Abrahamic religions worship the same God(swt) our descriptions are very close to being identical. Although some Fundamentalist Christians believe Muslims worship the moon. And not even the full moon, for christ's sakes.
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 21, 2014 11:07:25 GMT -6
For some of us we find it gives us satisfaction and an appreciation of life. In about 1958/59 I had the same results through a Gallon of "Wild Irish Rose", playing my bongo drums and listening to Jack Kerouac reciting "Johnny Nolan has a Patch on His Ass" in Greenwich Village. (Hmm that was about the time I left St Thomas Seminary where I had begun my studies to be a priest.) Although I did not leave Catholicism until I was about 25 I now find that submitting to Allaah(swt) gives better results, is cheaper and I feel a sense of fulfillment I never experienced by other means. Gives me a better feeling than a snifter of Hardy Perfection 140 year old cognac used to give me in my Atheist years. Please accept the following analogy with a sense of humor. I know a woman who married the husband of the woman her husband cheated with and later married. My friend referred to tne exchange as "switchin bitches". Everyone, including the children, found some happiness along the way. We survive as best we can, despite, and no doubt with belief in god and religion. This sense of fulfillment proves nothing concerning god. True. I felt fulfillment as a Catholic, a Fundementalist an Atheist and now Muslim. Each time to a higher degree than the previous times. but at the time of each I felt it was the epitome of fulfillment. the sense of fulfillment is not proof. But it is an effect of belief for some people.
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Post by stevec on Jun 21, 2014 11:54:02 GMT -6
Please accept the following analogy with a sense of humor. I know a woman who married the husband of the woman her husband cheated with and later married. My friend referred to tne exchange as "switchin bitches". Everyone, including the children, found some happiness along the way. We survive as best we can, despite, and no doubt with belief in god and religion. This sense of fulfillment proves nothing concerning god. True. I felt fulfillment as a Catholic, a Fundementalist an Atheist and now Muslim. Each time to a higher degree than the previous times. but at the time of each I felt it was the epitome of fulfillment. the sense of fulfillment is not proof. But it is an effect of belief for some people. The fact that you're discussing an "effect" gives me the impression that you are self medicating. That's what all this religion stuff is, self medication.
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 21, 2014 12:03:53 GMT -6
True. I felt fulfillment as a Catholic, a Fundementalist an Atheist and now Muslim. Each time to a higher degree than the previous times. but at the time of each I felt it was the epitome of fulfillment. the sense of fulfillment is not proof. But it is an effect of belief for some people. The fact that you're discussing an "effect" gives me the impression that you are self medicating. That's what all this religion stuff is, self medication. Self Medication is a very good analogy. but that does not necessarily serve as evidence for or against belief in God(swt) Because I feel good doing what I believe, is not necessarily evidence my belief is false.
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