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Post by stevec on Jun 24, 2014 9:04:29 GMT -6
Woodrowli,
I don't have enough information on the inner political workings of Islam to debate intelligently on this subject, but I do know human nature. The only thing that can be deduced from your posts is that wise Islamic spiritual leaders pull strings from behind a curtain. Islam is horizontally organized behind numerous front men and hidden faces. Islam can not defy human nature, there's simply too much power associated with religious belief and controlling people's minds for that to go unharnessed. Religion is a political tool.
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 24, 2014 12:52:24 GMT -6
Woodrowli, I don't have enough information on the inner political workings of Islam to debate intelligently on this subject, but I do know human nature. The only thing that can be deduced from your posts is that wise Islamic spiritual leaders pull strings from behind a curtain. Islam is horizontally organized behind numerous front men and hidden faces. Islam can not defy human nature, there's simply too much power associated with religious belief and controlling people's minds for that to go unharnessed. Religion is a political tool. There are and have been Islamic Nations under which the National leaders have misused Islam to control the people. Typically the "Powers" have limited education and kept the general populace illiterate. But us human's will succumb to the misuse of any ideaolgy Religious secular etc. Anything that can be used to foster an "Us vs Them" attitude works quite well. Racism works just as well as Religion as does Nationalism and sometimes industrialization. In the smaller Islamic Nations Such as the small kingdoms on the Arabian peninsula you have basically Family rule, as every citizen is related either by blood or marriage. Even in Saudi nepotism prevails as the majority of the Government leaders are from the al-Saud Family. If Muslims actually stuck to the basic concepts of Islam, we would be too individualistic to control as a group. Islam is essentially an individual relationship with God(swt).
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Post by stevec on Jun 24, 2014 13:29:06 GMT -6
Woodrowli,
All religions claim that if people stuck with basic religious concepts, the world would be a better place. In the end it's just another area of contention. As independent as you believe Muslim's are, minded individuals will always band together and cause conflicts.
Have you ever considered that perhaps Islam may be better off having their own version of the Pope to unite the various sects? Unless you're a Muslim living in the West, the Islamic world is fractured, oppressive, and scary.
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Post by ken on Jun 24, 2014 16:25:54 GMT -6
there's simply too much power associated with religious belief and controlling people's minds for that to go unharnessed. Religion is a political tool. There is some truth to this, though not all encompassing ... but may i also include humanists, environmentalists and atheists which also can be political tools. Any group can be a political tool to try to control people's minds. Hopefully, there is enough independent thinking to prevent it.
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 24, 2014 17:28:05 GMT -6
Woodrowli, All religions claim that if people stuck with basic religious concepts, the world would be a better place. In the end it's just another area of contention. As independent as you believe Muslim's are, minded individuals will always band together and cause conflicts. Have you ever considered that perhaps Islam may be better off having their own version of the Pope to unite the various sects? Unless you're a Muslim living in the West, the Islamic world is fractured, oppressive, and scary. Basically the NOI, Ahmadyyah and Shi'ite do have a central leader that is very similar to a Pope. But I do not see Islam as being intended to be an organized religion, We do not even claim to know who is a Muslim, that is only known to the individual and Allaaqh(swt). One reason there is no excommunication in Islam, there is nothing to join. You can't get kicked out of what you have not joined. We might be able say that a person is not acting Islamicaly, but that does not mean that they are not practicing Islam to the best of their ability. The only time we know a person is not a Muslim is if they them self say they are not. To have a central leader you need an organizable concept. The major Dogma of Islam is self Responsibility. We alone are responsible for what we believe. We are not to accept the teachings of any living person, unless we our self have found reason to believe they are true.
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Post by stevec on Jun 24, 2014 21:28:10 GMT -6
there's simply too much power associated with religious belief and controlling people's minds for that to go unharnessed. Religion is a political tool. There is some truth to this, though not all encompassing ... but may i also include humanists, environmentalists and atheists which also can be political tools. Any group can be a political tool to try to control people's minds. Hopefully, there is enough independent thinking to prevent it. Absolutely, everything can and will be used to control peoples' thoughts and wallets, and contrary to what you said, it is all encompassing. I'm having a difficult time thinking of one thing that isn't on the list.
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Post by stevec on Jun 24, 2014 21:54:35 GMT -6
I don't know, Woodrowli, getting people to start praying en masse seems to fit the definition for "organized" religion. That picture you posted says it all. Your description of Islam reminds me of an ant colony, with Allah represented by the queen. You certainly can't claim that an ant colony isn't organized.
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 25, 2014 2:32:24 GMT -6
I don't know, Woodrowli, getting people to start praying en masse seems to fit the definition for "organized" religion. That picture you posted says it all. Your description of Islam reminds me of an ant colony, with Allah represented by the queen. You certainly can't claim that an ant colony isn't organized. Working backwards. Ants are one of the best organized groups on earth. But they do not have the ability to go contrary to the group I will agree seeing Muslims praying en masse ls very similar to ant behavior. But one major difference, the Muslims do so by personal choice. What you do not see are the people indoors, those simply sitting in their cars reading a newspaper or those who avoid the crowded sections of the city at prayer time. What we are seeing in the picture: is it organization or an artifact of over crowding. That particular picture was taken in Bangladesh. I posted it to show most Muslims do not pray inside a Mosque. While we are obligated to pray within a specific time frame (There is about a 30 minute window for each of the 5 obligatory prayers. We can not begin before a specific time nor after the time frame.) In a large city in which it would be chaotic for each person to begin at their own time it makes more sense for them to all do it at the same time. A person out in a non-crowded area or in their own home has a good bit of flexibility. Although most will say the prayer as soon as possible, because if something happens and they run out of time, it becomes a missed prayer that must be made up.
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Post by ken on Jun 25, 2014 5:59:57 GMT -6
There is some truth to this, though not all encompassing ... but may i also include humanists, environmentalists and atheists which also can be political tools. Any group can be a political tool to try to control people's minds. Hopefully, there is enough independent thinking to prevent it. Absolutely, everything can and will be used to control peoples' thoughts and wallets, and contrary to what you said, it is all encompassing. I'm having a difficult time thinking of one thing that isn't on the list. Are you saying that you are on that list?
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Post by stevec on Jun 30, 2014 18:35:41 GMT -6
Absolutely, everything can and will be used to control peoples' thoughts and wallets, and contrary to what you said, it is all encompassing. I'm having a difficult time thinking of one thing that isn't on the list. Are you saying that you are on that list? Yes, I'm on that list. I have manipulated people and situations in order to get what I wanted.
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Post by ken on Jul 2, 2014 16:24:50 GMT -6
Are you saying that you are on that list? Yes, I'm on that list. I have manipulated people and situations in order to get what I wanted. "There is none righteous, no not one". Thank you for confirming and being honest. Welcome to my group.
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Post by showmedot on Jul 3, 2014 23:28:51 GMT -6
Not me. I see no merit in belaboring the obvious.
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