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Post by woodrowli on Jun 21, 2014 12:57:11 GMT -6
The 4 Abrahamic religions worship the same God(swt) our descriptions are very close to being identical. Although some Fundamentalist Christians believe Muslims worship the moon. And not even the full moon, for christ's sakes. Leave it to the Christians to short change us. |
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Post by stevec on Jun 21, 2014 13:10:47 GMT -6
The fact that you're discussing an "effect" gives me the impression that you are self medicating. That's what all this religion stuff is, self medication. Self Medication is a very good analogy. but that does not necessarily serve as evidence for or against belief in God(swt) Because I feel good doing what I believe, is not necessarily evidence my belief is false. We're talking about evidence. Again, there are expectations with the meaning of that word. If evidence, in spiritual terms, means confusion, then god certainly has attained that benchmark. There we go, god is omniconfused. Dot, is there a real word for that perfect state? I have some derogatory terms I could use, but I'm more interested in a word that an apologist might use. Woodrowli, is there a flaw in religious belief being all about fulfillment, whether it's god's fulfillment or self fulfillment? |
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Post by showmedot on Jun 21, 2014 13:47:37 GMT -6
Self Medication is a very good analogy. but that does not necessarily serve as evidence for or against belief in God(swt) Because I feel good doing what I believe, is not necessarily evidence my belief is false. We're talking about evidence. Again, there are expectations with the meaning of that word. Precisely. One would think that whether or not a deity can be demonstrated to exist would be of prime importance. The days when I believed largely because it made me feel better are several years behind me, and apparently longer ago than I realized. I now find it difficult to believe I ever thought believing because it felt good was sufficient reason. Which is not to say that I wouldn't accept decent evidence that a deity, any deity, exists even though people might have a sketchy understanding of its nature. I've never yet despite much investigation found anything about deities that holds up to scrutiny. And the "sacred truths" set forth in scriptures of the Abrahamic religions seem more than somewhat lacking. There's a tidy bit of absurdity--you want a term demonstrating God to be not merely imperfect but perfectly so, a term that would suit an apologist whose stock in trade is to explain why God is everything people are not and never can be. That smacks of "the sound of one hand clapping." Are you sure you're not a closet Buddhist?  Thanks for giving me a chuckle, Steve. |
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 21, 2014 14:11:06 GMT -6
Self Medication is a very good analogy. but that does not necessarily serve as evidence for or against belief in God(swt) Because I feel good doing what I believe, is not necessarily evidence my belief is false. We're talking about evidence. Again, there are expectations with the meaning of that word. If evidence, in spiritual terms, means confusion, then god certainly has attained that benchmark. There we go, god is omniconfused. Dot, is there a real word for that perfect state? I have some derogatory terms I could use, but I'm more interested in a word that an apologist might use. Woodrowli, is there a flaw in religious belief being all about fulfillment, whether it's god's fulfillment or self fulfillment? Woodrowli, is there a flaw in religious belief being all about fulfillment, whether it's god's fulfillment or self fulfillment? I don't know. While many people get a feeling of fullfillment from religion, I do not see that as being it's purpose. I see the purpose being the worshiping of God(swt) there are usually effects resulting from doing so, but they are not the purpose. |
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Post by ken on Jun 21, 2014 17:59:09 GMT -6
Leave it to the Christians to short change us. We always give the right change.  |
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 21, 2014 18:50:08 GMT -6
Leave it to the Christians to short change us. We always give the right change. How come we ended up with only a crescent moon? Actually that is not and never was a symbol for Islam. It came from the Ottoman flag. The Ottoman's (Turks) came to be representative of Islam to the Western nations and as a result in parts of the world it now represents Islam. Most mosques do not have a crescent moon on them. But non-Muslims do not realize they are Mosques. Seems like the Western world only thinks the buildings with a crescent are a mosque. |
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Post by stevec on Jun 21, 2014 18:59:09 GMT -6
We're talking about evidence. Again, there are expectations with the meaning of that word. If evidence, in spiritual terms, means confusion, then god certainly has attained that benchmark. There we go, god is omniconfused. Dot, is there a real word for that perfect state? I have some derogatory terms I could use, but I'm more interested in a word that an apologist might use. Woodrowli, is there a flaw in religious belief being all about fulfillment, whether it's god's fulfillment or self fulfillment? Woodrowli, is there a flaw in religious belief being all about fulfillment, whether it's god's fulfillment or self fulfillment? I don't know. While many people get a feeling of fullfillment from religion, I do not see that as being it's purpose. I see the purpose being the worshiping of God(swt) there are usually effects resulting from doing so, but they are not the purpose. I don't know either, but I can't argue with the results. If you get any fulfillment what so ever, it appears tnere's a selfish purpose involved. Is it better to have been an atheist and not cared, than to have cared about god at all? The most noble thing, imho, is to serve god and feel miserable about the whole affair. |
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Post by stevec on Jun 21, 2014 19:12:09 GMT -6
We always give the right change. How come we ended up with only a crescent moon? Actually that is not and never was a symbol for Islam. It came from the Ottoman flag. The Ottoman's (Turks) came to be representative of Islam to the Western nations and as a result in parts of the world it now represents Islam. Most mosques do not have a crescent moon on them. But non-Muslims do not realize they are Mosques. Seems like the Western world only thinks the buildings with a crescent are a mosque. Don't ask Ken for a full moon, it's not pretty and he had to register as a ..............well, you know what, the last time someone suggested such a thing during his ministry's last annual bus trip to Vegas. One fewer beers and a few more miles and it would have stayed in Vegas. |
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 21, 2014 19:31:25 GMT -6
Woodrowli, is there a flaw in religious belief being all about fulfillment, whether it's god's fulfillment or self fulfillment? I don't know. While many people get a feeling of fullfillment from religion, I do not see that as being it's purpose. I see the purpose being the worshiping of God(swt) there are usually effects resulting from doing so, but they are not the purpose. I don't know either, but I can't argue with the results. If you get any fulfillment what so ever, it appears tnere's a selfish purpose involved. Is it better to have been an atheist and not cared, than to have cared about god at all? The most noble thing, imho, is to serve god and feel miserable about the whole affair. true, but there is no need to be masochistic about it. Helping the needy (Charity) is an act of worship. In my opinion the greatest charity is when you give something you want to a person you do not like, simply because you know they need it. |
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Post by stevec on Jun 21, 2014 21:19:11 GMT -6
I don't know either, but I can't argue with the results. If you get any fulfillment what so ever, it appears tnere's a selfish purpose involved. Is it better to have been an atheist and not cared, than to have cared about god at all? The most noble thing, imho, is to serve god and feel miserable about the whole affair. true, but there is no need to be masochistic about it. Helping the needy (Charity) is an act of worship. In my opinion the greatest charity is when you give something you want to a person you do not like, simply because you know they need it. Charity towards someone you don't like is called condescension, which is a totally satisfying feeling, that much I do know from personal experience. As far as I'm concerned, any charitable act, any service to god, is a self serving path towards heaven. Nothing makes me feel better, more fulfilled, than to do something charitable, especially when I can do it anonymously. Imagine if I went to hell for my effort, that would be great. I could look up condescendingly towards god knowing that I didn't deserve such treatment. That would make my eternity. Yeah, I know, you don't believe in hell for an eternity. No god would want someone like me strutting around heaven, even if I spent only 5 minutes in hell. I don't forget, and I don't forgive. Seriously, there's no service to god that isn't self serving. When was the last time you prayed to god and asked to he sent to hell? When was the last time you performed a charitable act and expected to be sent to hell for the effort? |
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Post by stevec on Jun 21, 2014 21:36:00 GMT -6
We're talking about evidence. Again, there are expectations with the meaning of that word. Precisely. One would think that whether or not a deity can be demonstrated to exist would be of prime importance. The days when I believed largely because it made me feel better are several years behind me, and apparently longer ago than I realized. I now find it difficult to believe I ever thought believing because it felt good was sufficient reason. Which is not to say that I wouldn't accept decent evidence that a deity, any deity, exists even though people might have a sketchy understanding of its nature. I've never yet despite much investigation found anything about deities that holds up to scrutiny. And the "sacred truths" set forth in scriptures of the Abrahamic religions seem more than somewhat lacking. There's a tidy bit of absurdity--you want a term demonstrating God to be not merely imperfect but perfectly so, a term that would suit an apologist whose stock in trade is to explain why God is everything people are not and never can be. That smacks of "the sound of one hand clapping." Are you sure you're not a closet Buddhist? Thanks for giving me a chuckle, Steve. Bingo, I can't imagine believing in a god concept and feeling good about it. The idea is totally revolting, considering what has been presented as proof. I guess I'm stuck with omniconfusion, as absurd as it is. It is Buddhist like, isn't it? Hmmm, perhaps I should start work on that potbelly. |
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 22, 2014 0:39:01 GMT -6
Precisely. One would think that whether or not a deity can be demonstrated to exist would be of prime importance. The days when I believed largely because it made me feel better are several years behind me, and apparently longer ago than I realized. I now find it difficult to believe I ever thought believing because it felt good was sufficient reason. Which is not to say that I wouldn't accept decent evidence that a deity, any deity, exists even though people might have a sketchy understanding of its nature. I've never yet despite much investigation found anything about deities that holds up to scrutiny. And the "sacred truths" set forth in scriptures of the Abrahamic religions seem more than somewhat lacking. There's a tidy bit of absurdity--you want a term demonstrating God to be not merely imperfect but perfectly so, a term that would suit an apologist whose stock in trade is to explain why God is everything people are not and never can be. That smacks of "the sound of one hand clapping." Are you sure you're not a closet Buddhist? Thanks for giving me a chuckle, Steve. Bingo, I can't imagine believing in a god concept and feeling good about it. The idea is totally revolting, considering what has been presented as proof. I guess I'm stuck with omniconfusion, as absurd as it is. It is Buddhist like, isn't it? Hmmm, perhaps I should start work on that potbelly. During my 20 atheist/agnostic years I pretty much followed Zen Buddhism. It was a livable lifestyle, you may want to try Zen as a life style. |
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Post by stevec on Jun 22, 2014 6:29:01 GMT -6
Bingo, I can't imagine believing in a god concept and feeling good about it. The idea is totally revolting, considering what has been presented as proof. I guess I'm stuck with omniconfusion, as absurd as it is. It is Buddhist like, isn't it? Hmmm, perhaps I should start work on that potbelly. During my 20 atheist/agnostic years I pretty much followed Zen Buddhism. It was a livable lifestyle, you may want to try Zen as a life style. I'm probably the most unspiritual person you'll ever meet. Jim made reference to my perspective the other day, I'm not wired for spirituality. There's never been the urge to jump from one religion to another or to explore. Some, including a couple of Buddhists and a Baha'i, have suggested that I'm lazy. That may be true, but I like to think of myself as having attained perfect unspirituality. |
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 22, 2014 9:13:36 GMT -6
During my 20 atheist/agnostic years I pretty much followed Zen Buddhism. It was a livable lifestyle, you may want to try Zen as a life style. I'm probably the most unspiritual person you'll ever meet. Jim made reference to my perspective the other day, I'm not wired for spirituality. There's never been the urge to jump from one religion to another or to explore. Some, including a couple of Buddhists and a Baha'i, have suggested that I'm lazy. That may be true, but I like to think of myself as having attained perfect unspirituality. As long as it is by your own choice and you choose based upon your own findings, what more could anyone desire for you? I wish you the best and am glad to see you are happy with your choice. I think the only time I should intervene in a person's choice is if I know for a fact it was not made by their own free will. (ie: Forced by threats or physical means) |
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Post by showmedot on Jun 22, 2014 22:59:55 GMT -6
And therein is my underlying concern which prompted the topic: Shouldn't it matter to us when it appears that someone else believes things that make no sense? Are we to agree that as long as a person insists they've freely chosen to believe whatever it is that that's fine and dandy?
If deities are as people suppose them to be, shouldn't their presumed ideas and actions make MORE sense than any that people can think up? Not less!
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