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Post by showmedot on Jun 13, 2014 11:34:15 GMT -6
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 13, 2014 12:47:07 GMT -6
What's so surprising about this. This is the consensus defense of the Catholic Church, echoed by Catholics everywhere. "I support the Holy Catholic Church, not the pack of pedophiles that fill its payroll, nor the leadership which shelters them."
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Post by Jim on Jun 13, 2014 14:14:30 GMT -6
(Actually FB noted that some Catholics would say, "I support the Holy Catholic Church, not the pack of pedophiles that fill its payroll, nor the leadership which shelters them." Yes and no. I can understand your derision of those whom you believe simply look the other way, present company included. On the other hand, many professions including but certainly not limited to pediatrics, education and youth sport coaching have harbored plenty of active pedophiles. It is not unreasonable (in my view) to support these institutions while condemning the pedophiles on staff and the leadership that shelters them. Do you see this point? Jim
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Post by Jim on Jun 13, 2014 14:20:15 GMT -6
Interesting source. The republication of this article in this source in part rebuts the point FB is making above. J
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 13, 2014 21:03:18 GMT -6
(Actually FB noted that some Catholics would say, "I support the Holy Catholic Church, not the pack of pedophiles that fill its payroll, nor the leadership which shelters them." Yes and no. I can understand your derision of those whom you believe simply look the other way, present company included. On the other hand, many professions including but certainly not limited to pediatrics, education and youth sport coaching have harbored plenty of active pedophiles. It is not unreasonable (in my view) to support these institutions while condemning the pedophiles on staff and the leadership that shelters them. Do you see this point? Jim I would if the problem were isolated, rare, or in line with population based expectations--never mind the issue of "moral high ground" for the moment. Do you honestly think that's the case for the RCC?
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Post by stevec on Jun 13, 2014 21:09:41 GMT -6
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Post by showmedot on Jun 14, 2014 4:00:03 GMT -6
Yanno, I can believe a guy with his mindset and age might actually not have registered in the 1980's that child abuse is a crime. Intellectually, yes, but on the deeper emotional level? Possibly not.
Richard Sipe, a former priest who worked extensively as a therapist for priests, says that arrested emotional and sexual development plays a major role in how older priests in particilar regard sex with children. Consider thst a guy aged 69 probably went right into a seminary prep school at age 12-14. That was commonplace when this archbishop was that age. They were molding his psyche early on, perhaps before he'd even started puberty, to regard sex as a moral failure except for unprotected marital sex.
Consequently, nutty though it sounds, he might actually NOT have regarded sex with kids as a crime becsuse mentally he and some of his cohorts are essentially stuck in a prepubescent mindset. They could think of themselves as "just boys horsing around sinfully."
Then, too, the operative mode of thinking about their fellow priests molesting children was hardcore denial. There are numerous cases documented of priests and bishops denying that any such thing could be occurring when notified of it. Watch the documentary, Mea Maxima Culpa, currently on HBO for an instance of that related by a victim, a student at a Wisconsin school for deaf kids at the time.
Btw, there's been a HUGE flap about this on the St. Looey local news.
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 14, 2014 16:08:44 GMT -6
We Minnesotans sent you this loser.
The archbishops mind-boggling stupidity is what you get when an organization decides that it is accountable to God alone. Gods way too much the absent parent to take care of real problems.
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Post by stevec on Jun 14, 2014 18:01:59 GMT -6
(Actually FB noted that some Catholics would say, "I support the Holy Catholic Church, not the pack of pedophiles that fill its payroll, nor the leadership which shelters them." Yes and no. I can understand your derision of those whom you believe simply look the other way, present company included. On the other hand, many professions including but certainly not limited to pediatrics, education and youth sport coaching have harbored plenty of active pedophiles. It is not unreasonable (in my view) to support these institutions while condemning the pedophiles on staff and the leadership that shelters them. Do you see this point? Jim I don't know. I've always, since my youth, considered Catholic priests to be "strange" people. I've never felt uncomfortable around teachers, sport coaches, or doctors.
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Post by Jim on Jun 15, 2014 21:27:05 GMT -6
Yes and no. I can understand your derision of those whom you believe simply look the other way, present company included. On the other hand, many professions including but certainly not limited to pediatrics, education and youth sport coaching have harbored plenty of active pedophiles. It is not unreasonable (in my view) to support these institutions while condemning the pedophiles on staff and the leadership that shelters them. Do you see this point? Jim I would if the problem were isolated, rare, or in line with population based expectations--never mind the issue of "moral high ground" for the moment. Do you honestly think that's the case for the RCC? Hi FB: I've taken it for granted that the rate of pedophilia among RCC priests is abnormally high. Once or twice I've googled the rate though, to see if the RCC rate is higher than the rate of ministers of other denominations, teachers, coaches and so forth. All I've ever found (with out looking too hard) is tons of argument from pro and con biased sources. If you have a link to a reasonably unbiased study showing that pedophilia among RCC priests is not in line with other religions/professions/groups, please let me know. I'm not asking you to do my homework; I'm only asking if you have a source in mind. J
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Post by showmedot on Jun 16, 2014 3:41:41 GMT -6
The John Jay Report appears to be the definitive study. Sorry, I can't link it, but the Kindle goes directly into download mode when I click on the site, easily googled though.
Said study found the rate in fact is no higher than among similar groups of adults with extensive contact with children.
I think the assumption that there are more pedophiles among priests probably reflects the general view that the priesthood is an abnormal profession due largely to enforced celibacy. For Catholics, I suspect the shock and horror result in part from the teaching that the priest acts as Christ on earth in confession. There's a definite aura of otherworldliness about that idea that I think heavily colors how Catholics trust and regard priests, not to mention the associations with the title "Father."
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 16, 2014 18:34:15 GMT -6
The John Jay Report appears to be the definitive study. Sorry, I can't link it, but the Kindle goes directly into download mode when I click on the site, easily googled though. It's here, and I agree that it is the most comprehensive data we have. Said study found the rate in fact is no higher than among similar groups of adults with extensive contact with children. I think the assumption that there are more pedophiles among priests probably reflects the general view that the priesthood is an abnormal profession due largely to enforced celibacy. For Catholics, I suspect the shock and horror result in part from the teaching that the priest acts as Christ on earth in confession. There's a definite aura of otherworldliness about that idea that I think heavily colors how Catholics trust and regard priests, not to mention the associations with the title "Father." I don't think that's it, Dot. Think of it this way--if a daycare is found to be employing pedophiles, children are removed from the daycare. If the daycare were found to have known about the pedophiles and protected them without filing police reports or warning the parents, it would be shut down and criminal charges would almost certainly be filed. Not so with the Holy Catholic Church. The particular outrage of the RCC centers around the following: 1. The pedophilia was/is HUGE in scope. Only 5% of diocese don't have complaints filed and/or pending. 2. The data don't exactly show what you claim, above. Read it for yourself and decide. 3. The RCC shoots its mouth off regularly with moralizing claims concerning homosexuality, birth control etc while having set an atrocious example for moral conduct. 4. Abuse by priest was deliberately hidden from police under threat of excommunication at the very highest levels of Catholic authority. 5. In contrast to how parents react to evidence of pedophilia in other spheres, Catholics continue to support their criminally liable leadership even while they are continuing to actively obstruct justice (e.g. in Minnesota as we speak).
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Post by showmedot on Jun 16, 2014 19:27:03 GMT -6
Except, FB, we're regarding the magnitude of the RCC priest problem with the 20/20 of hindsight along with a much more exhaustive understanding of the ineffectiveness of therapy that eventually became apparent.
It was still thought in the twenty years now known as the era of greatest scandal in the U.S. (1960's-1980's) that pedophilia COULD be remedied (not cured but somewhat lessened) by removing the offender from the situation, therapy and then the priestly equivalent of a desk job in the more egregious cases.
Except, subsequently we learned that all those means never were very effective. Combine them with the efforts of the RCC to keep "personnel problems" under wraps, and you have the makings of the disaster that ensued, an outrage made substantially worse by the deepseated belief that sincere repentance combined with God's grace can and does enable the sinner to "go and sin no more."
We didn't have mandatory reporting in public schools where I taught until the early 1990's. People honestly didn't have any better understanding of the resilience of pedophilia before that than we did of alcoholism when Foster Brooks played such a funny drunk on The Dean Martin Show in the 60's. Martin himself was the charming drunk while Brooks went much further. Neither portrayal would be at all acceptable on tv now, but then Brooks made a definite name for himself with his sloppy drunk act. I remember thinking him really funny. Drunks were funny.
And pedophilia a much more pervasive problem than anyone knew or could consider then. It was simply unthinkable that the Scout leader, Little League coach or sweet, loving Father O'Malley could do something like that. It's no wonder at all to me that victims were not believed for years and years. None.
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 16, 2014 19:42:45 GMT -6
1. It was always a crime. 2. The RCC practically celebrated the cover up...Pope Benedict. 3. They continue to obfuscate. 4. Catholics have not voted with their feet.
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Post by showmedot on Jun 16, 2014 19:49:57 GMT -6
From the Jay report linked above:
"At the time of the peak and subsequent decline in sexual abuse incidents by Catholic priests, there was a substantial increase in knowledge and understand- ing in American society about victimization and the harm of child sexual abuse; changes were made in stat- utes related to rape and sexual abuse of children and in reporting requirements of child abuse and neglect; an understanding of the causes of sexual offending advanced; and research related to the treatment of sexual abusers was expanded."
This was a major factor, IMO, in people coming to think of the numbers as vastly greater among priests during those twenty years. Note that the report states that the vast majority of priests engaging in overt sexual behaviors did so with adults not children.
Thus, I continue to maintain that it was WHO and WHERE rather than how rampant it was that made the impact so profound. I can't even attempt to explain how many of my relatives just did not and could not believe that priests could do such a thing.
An aunt and uncle who died a few years ago never did believe it to be true, my cousin told me--simply another vicious attack upon the One, True Church and those avowed men of God, its priests.
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