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Post by showmedot on Jun 20, 2014 11:41:11 GMT -6
Dammit! I can't get the freakin' quote feature to behave properly.
I'm in somewhat of a quandary here, Jim, because yes, as a cradle Catholic I emphatically DO understand on one level that millions of Catholics believe God is as you put it "real, present and active" and the RCC the embodiment for them of "community and...charity." And that I do understand that perspective was why I raised the example of my aunt and uncle. Neither was a stupid nor an uninformed person nor so ga-ga as to be out of touch with reality. Mind you, I've no idea what kept them in the church, nor do I expect does/did their daughter, my cousin, when push comes to shove. She mentioned having had a somewhat heated discussion with her father not long after the Globe broke the story and it subsequently became evident that there was both smoke and fire. At that point, she told him that he needn't expect her to attend his funeral because she was never again setting foot inside a Catholic church which was pretty gutsy of her, IMO, since she was a live-in caregiver for her parents with no other residence and had been for a decade or more at that point. I didn't ask her if she upheld that or not when he died.
Interestingly, she said her mother insisted upon no funeral Mass for herself, which is MOST unusual for a devout Catholic as you're probably aware. The reason was completely unrelated to the scandal as far as I know, but I rather wondered if discomfort with the Church's subsequent handling of the coverup and its treatment of victims who came forward had something to do with that but was never articulated. My aunt was a very compassionate person who could be outspoken on some issues but on others with deep personal significance equally reticent.
However, it continues to trouble me that so very many intelligent Catholics still fail to "vote with their feet." Perhaps, as you imply, I'm being unfair and simplistic in attributing their not doing so to emotional neediness. I dunno about that. That's just what I suspect having felt and sometimes still feeling a good deal of Old School Catholic G. U. I. L. T., yanno what I mean.
This may not be such an apt analogy considering how much I'm tinkering with it here, but let's suppose for a moment that the U.S. government were structured similarly to the RCC, comprised of career public servants who choose to seek the positions they hold and that the U.S. Senate elects the President from among its ranks. You grasp where I'm headed, I take it?
Now, positing that structure...Let's say that post-Watergate Nixon remained President for life. How much sense would it have made for Americans to say in essence, "Oh, well...(shrug) there are more good, devoted public servants than crooks so I still have faith and trust in the basic system even though we know Nixon and his White House cohorts ordered Watergate and then covered up their misdeeds. The whole is greater than a few rotten apples, and we just trust that the President and Congress will clean up the mess on their own"?
Isn't there a point, as I asked previously, where Catholics en masse must admit that the hierarchy's actions are so diametrically contrary to what the institution purports to stand for (despite recent baby steps in the right direction) that laypeople are obliged in good conscience to demand that justice be done...or vote with their feet as FB put it? How CAN anyone remain in the Church knowing as we do that the rot is at least endemic and has been for decades where the locus of power lies--in the Vatican, the college of cardinals and the bishopric?
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Post by showmedot on Jun 20, 2014 11:49:15 GMT -6
The underlying question for me and likely for FB and Steve is obviously, "If God is so 'real, present and active (emphasis upon the latter)' then why the fuck doesn't God do SOMETHING to clean up this mess? Geez, even a well-placed lightning bolt would be a start."
Yeah, yeah...God doesn't work that way. People have free will. God expects people to shape up and do the right thing when they know what that is supposed to be. Myriads of excuses for the simple fact that God is as ever peculiarly absent despite all evidence demonstrating that people have royally fucked things up.
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Post by Jim on Jun 20, 2014 14:54:51 GMT -6
The underlying question for me and likely for FB and Steve is obviously, "If God is so 'real, present and active (emphasis upon the latter)' then why the fuck doesn't God do SOMETHING to clean up this mess? Geez, even a well-placed lightning bolt would be a start." Yeah, yeah...God doesn't work that way. People have free will. God expects people to shape up and do the right thing when they know what that is supposed to be. Myriads of excuses for the simple fact that God is as ever peculiarly absent despite all evidence demonstrating that people have royally fucked things up. I have no idea Dot. No cop-out intended here. Although this will draw a laugh I'm sure, I'll say it anyway: "I'm not so confident in my analytical abilities to rule out God just because he has not performed a miracle for me." Sometimes I feel like God does exist in a real and very present way. I know that this could just be the way I am wired as Steve would say. Jim
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Post by Jim on Jun 20, 2014 15:09:57 GMT -6
Dammit! I can't get the freakin' quote feature to behave properly.
I'm in somewhat of a quandary here, Jim, because yes, as a cradle Catholic I emphatically DO understand on one level that millions of Catholics believe God is as you put it "real, present and active" and the RCC the embodiment for them of "community and...charity." And that I do understand that perspective was why I raised the example of my aunt and uncle. Neither was a stupid nor an uninformed person nor so ga-ga as to be out of touch with reality. Mind you, I've no idea what kept them in the church, nor do I expect does/did their daughter, my cousin, when push comes to shove. She mentioned having had a somewhat heated discussion with her father not long after the Globe broke the story and it subsequently became evident that there was both smoke and fire. At that point, she told him that he needn't expect her to attend his funeral because she was never again setting foot inside a Catholic church which was pretty gutsy of her, IMO, since she was a live-in caregiver for her parents with no other residence and had been for a decade or more at that point. I didn't ask her if she upheld that or not when he died.
Interestingly, she said her mother insisted upon no funeral Mass for herself, which is MOST unusual for a devout Catholic as you're probably aware. The reason was completely unrelated to the scandal as far as I know, but I rather wondered if discomfort with the Church's subsequent handling of the coverup and its treatment of victims who came forward had something to do with that but was never articulated. My aunt was a very compassionate person who could be outspoken on some issues but on others with deep personal significance equally reticent.
However, it continues to trouble me that so very many intelligent Catholics still fail to "vote with their feet." Perhaps, as you imply, I'm being unfair and simplistic in attributing their not doing so to emotional neediness. I dunno about that. That's just what I suspect having felt and sometimes still feeling a good deal of Old School Catholic G. U. I. L. T., yanno what I mean.
This may not be such an apt analogy considering how much I'm tinkering with it here, but let's suppose for a moment that the U.S. government were structured similarly to the RCC, comprised of career public servants who choose to seek the positions they hold and that the U.S. Senate elects the President from among its ranks. You grasp where I'm headed, I take it?
Now, positing that structure...Let's say that post-Watergate Nixon remained President for life. How much sense would it have made for Americans to say in essence, "Oh, well...(shrug) there are more good, devoted public servants than crooks so I still have faith and trust in the basic system even though we know Nixon and his White House cohorts ordered Watergate and then covered up their misdeeds. The whole is greater than a few rotten apples, and we just trust that the President and Congress will clean up the mess on their own"?
Isn't there a point, as I asked previously, where Catholics en masse must admit that the hierarchy's actions are so diametrically contrary to what the institution purports to stand for (despite recent baby steps in the right direction) that laypeople are obliged in good conscience to demand that justice be done...or vote with their feet as FB put it? How CAN anyone remain in the Church knowing as we do that the rot is at least endemic and has been for decades where the locus of power lies--in the Vatican, the college of cardinals and the bishopric?
Hi Dot: I think your analogy is fine. What's more, I think a lot of US citizens feel exactly this way right now, even without the Nixon for life scenario... After 8 years of Bush and 6 years of Obama plus a dysfunctional Congress, many Americans feel that the government is just about hopeless even though we have elections. Some (like FB) would re-work the system now. Some (like me) believe pretty strongly that the system is fine, perhaps the best ever devised, and we only need to elect better politicians to make it go. Interesting how me and FB's views sort of align with our positions concerning the RCC, although I am wiling to defend the US system of government warts and all and at best I am personally ambivalent about the RCC as a human institution. And yes, concerning your last paragraph, at some point the Catholics (or US citizens for that matter) will become so fed up that they vote en-masse with their feet, at the ballot box or heaven help us with civil strife. Jim
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 20, 2014 16:30:17 GMT -6
Dammit! I can't get the freakin' quote feature to behave properly. You've probably just had a really bad morning and/or you are lying. If in doubt, ask the adult in the room. However, it continues to trouble me that so very many intelligent Catholics still fail to "vote with their feet." Perhaps, as you imply, I'm being unfair and simplistic in attributing their not doing so to emotional neediness. I dunno about that. Isn't there a point, as I asked previously, where Catholics en masse must admit that the hierarchy's actions are so diametrically contrary to what the institution purports to stand for (despite recent baby steps in the right direction) that laypeople are obliged in good conscience to demand that justice be done...or vote with their feet as FB put it? How CAN anyone remain in the Church knowing as we do that the rot is at least endemic and has been for decades where the locus of power lies--in the Vatican, the college of cardinals and the bishopric? Jim will tell you that you just said it better, but the truth (ouch...a truth) of the matter is that I was saying the same thing. What with complicity in the Holocaust, genocide, obstruction of disease control, subjugation of women, burning of heretics, marginalization of homosexuals, self-aggrandizement on the most opulent of scales, etc, you'd think that eventually the concern of Edmund Burke would be considered germane. The first time I got tossed from a forum, it was for vocally opposing a website owner who was (IMO--who knows, really) dealing unfairly with an outspoken but brilliant participant. At the time I challenged Jim to take a stand on principle. His response was "Why should I give up something that I enjoy?" I suppose the bottom line is that we can all have different answers to that question. Thus ends my 12 year fling with religion fora. Keep in touch.
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Post by showmedot on Jun 20, 2014 16:49:06 GMT -6
As a matter of fact, I had a great morning. Dragged out my old faithful hiking boots, grabbed the trekking poles and spent a glorious hour hiking one of my favorite trails.
Even getting rained on enough to dampen me pretty thoroughly didn't put me in a crappy mood which getting rained on usually does when I'm dumb enough not to stick raingear in my daypack.
Capped it off with a decent iced coffee at B&N plus the latest issues of Skeptical Inquirer and Free Inquiry, almost enough to make me echo the poet, "God's in His heaven, and all's right with the world."
No, my stupidass computer or browser or some damn thing just does that every so often, and I was too busy eating a really fine artichoke with an excellent balsamic vinegar mixed in mayo to get on my Kindle or iPhone instead.
A helluva fine day all in all.
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Post by stevec on Jun 20, 2014 21:21:34 GMT -6
Thus ends my 12 year fling with religion fora. Keep in touch. What the hell are you talking about?
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Post by showmedot on Jun 21, 2014 2:52:41 GMT -6
Thus ends my 12 year fling with religion fora. Keep in touch. What the hell are you talking about? That was a "Say WTF?" if I ever saw one, agreed.
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Post by stevec on Jun 21, 2014 8:15:12 GMT -6
What the hell are you talking about? That was a "Say WTF?" if I ever saw one, agreed. If she disappears, I'm taking her off my LGBT Chrismas card list.
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Post by showmedot on Jun 21, 2014 8:44:03 GMT -6
I can say unequivocally that I've never before encountered anyone who has a Christmas card list categorized by sexual orientation or gender identity.
Do you have Acquaintances We Scarcely Know and People We Feel Obliged To Send Cards To But Can't Stand lists, too?
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Post by Jim on Jun 23, 2014 9:34:57 GMT -6
Dammit! I can't get the freakin' quote feature to behave properly. You've probably just had a really bad morning and/or you are lying. If in doubt, ask the adult in the room. However, it continues to trouble me that so very many intelligent Catholics still fail to "vote with their feet." Perhaps, as you imply, I'm being unfair and simplistic in attributing their not doing so to emotional neediness. I dunno about that. Isn't there a point, as I asked previously, where Catholics en masse must admit that the hierarchy's actions are so diametrically contrary to what the institution purports to stand for (despite recent baby steps in the right direction) that laypeople are obliged in good conscience to demand that justice be done...or vote with their feet as FB put it? How CAN anyone remain in the Church knowing as we do that the rot is at least endemic and has been for decades where the locus of power lies--in the Vatican, the college of cardinals and the bishopric? Jim will tell you that you just said it better, but the truth (ouch...a truth) of the matter is that I was saying the same thing. What with complicity in the Holocaust, genocide, obstruction of disease control, subjugation of women, burning of heretics, marginalization of homosexuals, self-aggrandizement on the most opulent of scales, etc, you'd think that eventually the concern of Edmund Burke would be considered germane. The first time I got tossed from a forum, it was for vocally opposing a website owner who was (IMO--who knows, really) dealing unfairly with an outspoken but brilliant participant. At the time I challenged Jim to take a stand on principle. His response was "Why should I give up something that I enjoy?" I suppose the bottom line is that we can all have different answers to that question. Thus ends my 12 year fling with religion fora. Keep in touch. Hi FB: Wow. This revisionist history "parting shot" is wrong in so many different ways. Jim
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Post by Jim on Jun 23, 2014 9:38:02 GMT -6
What the hell are you talking about? That was a "Say WTF?" if I ever saw one, agreed. I'm guessing that FB will be back quite soon. Jim
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Post by stevec on Jun 23, 2014 11:07:08 GMT -6
I can say unequivocally that I've never before encountered anyone who has a Christmas card list categorized by sexual orientation or gender identity. Do you have Acquaintances We Scarcely Know and People We Feel Obliged To Send Cards To But Can't Stand lists, too? You haven't seen the Three Wisemen Xmas card where they're dresses as Cher, Madonna, and Barbara Streisand?
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Post by showmedot on Jun 23, 2014 12:41:30 GMT -6
I dunno about that one, but one year my "lil bro" cousin sent me an Xmas card with a sappy colored drawing of blond, blue-eyed Jesus holding a lamb. Card said, "Oh, Fluffy, at least YOU didn't forget it's my birthday."
That one got pride of placement as The Best Card EVER.
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Post by Jim on Jul 3, 2014 23:12:42 GMT -6
You've probably just had a really bad morning and/or you are lying. If in doubt, ask the adult in the room. Jim will tell you that you just said it better, but the truth (ouch...a truth) of the matter is that I was saying the same thing. What with complicity in the Holocaust, genocide, obstruction of disease control, subjugation of women, burning of heretics, marginalization of homosexuals, self-aggrandizement on the most opulent of scales, etc, you'd think that eventually the concern of Edmund Burke would be considered germane. The first time I got tossed from a forum, it was for vocally opposing a website owner who was (IMO--who knows, really) dealing unfairly with an outspoken but brilliant participant. At the time I challenged Jim to take a stand on principle. His response was "Why should I give up something that I enjoy?" I suppose the bottom line is that we can all have different answers to that question. Thus ends my 12 year fling with religion fora. Keep in touch. Hi FB: Wow. This revisionist history "parting shot" is wrong in so many different ways. Jim Wrong as I was about FB being back soon, I can't pout forever...
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