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Post by stevec on Jun 19, 2014 11:30:17 GMT -6
Thanks Jim, You don't appear to be the prime candidate to speak for those who sheepishly, for whatever reasons, support the RCC. Hi Steve: I suppose that's true, but I'm also not a prime candidate to speak for gays, minorities, women and other groups I speak up for from time to time. I'm fine with anyone's personal conclusion that the RCC is irredeemably corrupted. I am rubbed wrong by the second level of attack against those "sheep" who still see great value in the RCC that exceeds the flaws. Jim My mother is one of those that sheepishly clings to the RCC, but I would never discuss this with her, nor do I love her any less. It's just I see this sheepishness as being basically an act of self promotion, a get to heaven at any cost mentality. We can discuss this at whatever level of enlightenment we have attained over the last decade amongst ourselves without getting bent out of shape, don't you think? I interact with people of quite different faiths and with varying levels of faith, all of whom I have a great respect. I never get to express my opinion on the big spiritual picture, except on this forum. Last week, I listened to an evangelical proclaiming in a doctor's office how god and faith cured him of his back pain. I tried to keep my focus on my tablet and Angry Birds, but the asshole was sitting diagonally across from me, our knees were almost touching, and I could tell he was trying to get my attention. Finally, I looked at him, smiled, and said, - well, aren't you special. It's what I didn't say that separated that conversation from being disrespectful. We(atheists) don't get to say what we feel outside this forum.
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 19, 2014 12:47:13 GMT -6
Yep. Totally ok to broadcast ones faith in just about any context, but if you make a strong argument against faith in a private area where people have agreed to talk about it, you're out of bounds. I know the score, Steve. I
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 19, 2014 13:21:47 GMT -6
;My religious beliefs have not changed since 2006 when I first wrote my "hope" or "belief" that a just God, assuming he exists, will provide a path to salvation for all good souls, me, you and Steve-a-roo too. Religious belief is a fountain of eternal irony. For all the talk about spiritual growth, you are hardly the first Christian I have encountered who takes tangible pride in beliefs that have remained static for a decade of more. Congratulations on summiting Mt. Enlightenment--the views sound lovely,. Of course, you are plenty judgmental on your own, invoking yet again the bogeyman from past fora as your reliable foils. Maybe the real difference here is that the people I call out actually have a chance to respond?
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Post by Jim on Jun 19, 2014 13:41:37 GMT -6
;My religious beliefs have not changed since 2006 when I first wrote my "hope" or "belief" that a just God, assuming he exists, will provide a path to salvation for all good souls, me, you and Steve-a-roo too. Religious belief is a fountain of eternal irony. For all the talk about spiritual growth, you are hardly the first Christian I have encountered who takes tangible pride in beliefs that have remained static for a decade of more. Congratulations on summiting Mt. Enlightenment--the views sound lovely,. Of course, you are plenty judgmental on your own, invoking yet again the bogeyman from past fora as your reliable foils. Maybe the real difference here is that the people I call out actually have a chance to respond? What the heck is wrong with you?
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Post by Jim on Jun 19, 2014 13:43:44 GMT -6
Yep. Totally ok to broadcast ones faith in just about any context, but if you make a strong argument against faith in a private area where people have agreed to talk about it, you're out of bounds. I know the score, Steve. I I never thought I'd see you play the "poor persecuted me" card. Are you seriously going to deny that you hold those who "ignore the truth [rather] than to admit that one's path to salvation is paved with bullshit" in some degree of contempt?
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Post by Jim on Jun 19, 2014 13:44:55 GMT -6
Hi Steve: I suppose that's true, but I'm also not a prime candidate to speak for gays, minorities, women and other groups I speak up for from time to time. I'm fine with anyone's personal conclusion that the RCC is irredeemably corrupted. I am rubbed wrong by the second level of attack against those "sheep" who still see great value in the RCC that exceeds the flaws. Jim We can discuss this at whatever level of enlightenment we have attained over the last decade amongst ourselves without getting bent out of shape, don't you think? Of course, I agree completely. Jim
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Post by malleodei on Jun 19, 2014 15:00:12 GMT -6
;My religious beliefs have not changed since 2006 when I first wrote my "hope" or "belief" that a just God, assuming he exists, will provide a path to salvation for all good souls, me, you and Steve-a-roo too. Religious belief is a fountain of eternal irony. For all the talk about spiritual growth, you are hardly the first Christian I have encountered who takes tangible pride in beliefs that have remained static for a decade of more. Congratulations on summiting Mt. Enlightenment--the views sound lovely,. Of course, you are plenty judgmental on your own, invoking yet again the bogeyman from past fora as your reliable foils. Maybe the real difference here is that the people I call out actually have a chance to respond? How quaint. It's been probably about 4-5 months since posting or coming around here. It's a slow day, so i thought i'd come see what y'all have been up to, and I see that the ass-hole level of the regulars has remained intact, and maybe even knocked up a few notches. Any level of faith you have, Jim, will always put you in a different category, with them.
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Post by stevec on Jun 19, 2014 15:08:58 GMT -6
;My religious beliefs have not changed since 2006 when I first wrote my "hope" or "belief" that a just God, assuming he exists, will provide a path to salvation for all good souls, me, you and Steve-a-roo too. Religious belief is a fountain of eternal irony. For all the talk about spiritual growth, you are hardly the first Christian I have encountered who takes tangible pride in beliefs that have remained static for a decade of more. Congratulations on summiting Mt. Enlightenment--the views sound lovely,. Of course, you are plenty judgmental on your own, invoking yet again the bogeyman from past fora as your reliable foils. Maybe the real difference here is that the people I call out actually have a chance to respond? Jim is not the enemy, he's almost non-catholic. I believe you are being overly critical of Jim's position. On the other hand, I feel Jim is being overly sensitive towards our criticism of religious faith. Compared to the San Fran archbishop's recent defense of his upcoming trip in support of the traditional marriage rally in DC, Jim is an enlightened Catholic. There's an enemy if there ever was one. Better to be enlightened than hypocritical and bigoted.
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Post by stevec on Jun 19, 2014 15:19:47 GMT -6
Religious belief is a fountain of eternal irony. For all the talk about spiritual growth, you are hardly the first Christian I have encountered who takes tangible pride in beliefs that have remained static for a decade of more. Congratulations on summiting Mt. Enlightenment--the views sound lovely,. Of course, you are plenty judgmental on your own, invoking yet again the bogeyman from past fora as your reliable foils. Maybe the real difference here is that the people I call out actually have a chance to respond? How quaint. It's been probably about 4-5 months since posting or coming around here. It's a slow day, so i thought i'd come see what y'all have been up to, and I see that the ass-hole level of the regulars has remained intact, and maybe even knocked up a few notches. Any level of faith you have, Jim, will always put you in a different category, with them. Yeah, sure, 4-5 months, but I've missed you nonetheless. Surely, you have the time to post at least once per month, I hope. What's new?
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Post by Jim on Jun 19, 2014 15:51:22 GMT -6
Religious belief is a fountain of eternal irony. For all the talk about spiritual growth, you are hardly the first Christian I have encountered who takes tangible pride in beliefs that have remained static for a decade of more. Congratulations on summiting Mt. Enlightenment--the views sound lovely,. Of course, you are plenty judgmental on your own, invoking yet again the bogeyman from past fora as your reliable foils. Maybe the real difference here is that the people I call out actually have a chance to respond? Jim is not the enemy, he's almost non-catholic. I believe you are being overly critical of Jim's position. On the other hand, I feel Jim is being overly sensitive towards our criticism of religious faith. Compared to the San Fran archbishop's recent defense of his upcoming trip in support of the traditional marriage rally in DC, Jim is an enlightened Catholic. There's an enemy if there ever was one. Better to be enlightened than hypocritical and bigoted. Hi Steve: Thanks for the support, but I don't feel like I've been attacked in this thread (except maybe for FB's weird posts from this morning, which I am writing off as the product of haste, lack of sleep or something). I gotta try one last time to make pretty much the only point I've been trying to make: A. I'm not overly sensitive about criticism of faith in general or specific criticism leveled at RCC management. I agree with a lot (virtually all) of what has been said along these lines. I fully and openly acknowledge that criticism of the RCChurch is justified. B. I am "sensitive" about attacks against the "sheep." I'm not sensitive in the sense that it hurts me personally, but I do want to defend the "sheep" and also point out that FB (in my opinion) is being sanctimonious when she disparages those who "ignore the truth [rather] than to admit that one's path to salvation is paved with bullshit." As if FB had cornered truth... Sanctimonious pronouncements are offensive no matter whom they come from. That's about as simple as I can put it. Jim
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Post by Jim on Jun 19, 2014 15:57:25 GMT -6
Religious belief is a fountain of eternal irony. For all the talk about spiritual growth, you are hardly the first Christian I have encountered who takes tangible pride in beliefs that have remained static for a decade of more. Congratulations on summiting Mt. Enlightenment--the views sound lovely,. Of course, you are plenty judgmental on your own, invoking yet again the bogeyman from past fora as your reliable foils. Maybe the real difference here is that the people I call out actually have a chance to respond? How quaint. It's been probably about 4-5 months since posting or coming around here. It's a slow day, so i thought i'd come see what y'all have been up to, and I see that the ass-hole level of the regulars has remained intact, and maybe even knocked up a few notches. Any level of faith you have, Jim, will always put you in a different category, with them. Ironically, FB is the closest thing I have to a spiritual mentor... FB was instrumental in helping me crystallize a faith position that I am exceptionally comfortable with. The fact that she now mocks the fact that I have been spiritually stagnant for several years is puzzling. If it ain't broke don't fix it. As I mentioned above, FB must have had a truly crappy morning. God knows her punctuation and grammar are not up to norm. I'm not pointing that out as a dig, but merely to bolster my case that she is/was having a very crappy or taxing morning. Jim
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 19, 2014 16:51:26 GMT -6
Religious belief is a fountain of eternal irony. For all the talk about spiritual growth, you are hardly the first Christian I have encountered who takes tangible pride in beliefs that have remained static for a decade of more. Congratulations on summiting Mt. Enlightenment--the views sound lovely,. Of course, you are plenty judgmental on your own, invoking yet again the bogeyman from past fora as your reliable foils. Maybe the real difference here is that the people I call out actually have a chance to respond? Jim is not the enemy, he's almost non-catholic. I believe you are being overly critical of Jim's position. On the other hand, I feel Jim is being overly sensitive towards our criticism of religious faith. Compared to the San Fran archbishop's recent defense of his upcoming trip in support of the traditional marriage rally in DC, Jim is an enlightened Catholic. There's an enemy if there ever was one. Better to be enlightened than hypocritical and bigoted. I don't think Jim is the enemy either. That said, I refuse to accept that sharply and relentlessly criticizing the RCC on real, substantive issues (about which I have been crystal clear) and challenging Catholics to consider what sort organization they belong to is "overly judgmental". Or maybe it is. I really don't give a shit since by the time we start arguing about who is being more judgmental, we are just spitting opinions. There is a stacked deck of religious rhetoric in this country. If you dare to criticize the religion even in a debate forum explicitly dedicated to the topic, you are outside the rules of decorum. Whatever.
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 19, 2014 16:55:07 GMT -6
God knows her punctuation and grammar are not up to norm. I'm not pointing that out as a dig, but merely to bolster my case that she is/was having a very crappy or taxing morning. I was limited to an iPad this morning, and my vision isn't what it used to be on the small type. I'm sure that will cover punctuation nicely. Feel free to point out the grammatical lapses, since I'm sure you weren't just taking a cheap shot.
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 19, 2014 16:57:00 GMT -6
Any level of faith you have, Jim, will always put you in a different category, with them. Welcome back, CCC, and thanks for showing what the argument is really about. Good ol' US vs THEM...you just can't beat the classics, can you?
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Post by showmedot on Jun 19, 2014 17:45:57 GMT -6
Well, frankly, the criticisms have somewhat smacked of "Obviously Superior US" vs. "Unthinking Sheep THEM."
This is beginning to make me think I quit the UU's over trivia--mostly because their services bored the crap out of me. I found a religion purporting to be for thinkers that bored me that badly undeserving of my time or financial support.
A Starbucks and an hour of browsing B&N beat all hell out of churchy boredom.
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