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Post by showmedot on Jan 8, 2014 20:04:04 GMT -6
The family just doesn't get it.
Reportedly, they're distressed that the girl's body is not able to regulate temperature, a detail revealed in court documents accumulated from the half dozen evaluations which all declared her braindead.
About the transfer to an undisclosed facility, her uncle remarked, "We believe that as long as her heart is still pumping she's alive, as long as my niece's heart is beating she's alive."
Meanwhile, the Children's Hospital spokesperson commented that maintaining a level of care was becoming difficult because post-mortem deterioration is occurring.
The family just doesn't get it.
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jan 8, 2014 21:52:41 GMT -6
The family just doesn't get it. Reportedly, they're distressed that the girl's body is not able to regulate temperature, a detail revealed in court documents accumulated from the half dozen evaluations which all declared her braindead. About the transfer to an undisclosed facility, her uncle remarked, "We believe that as long as her heart is still pumping she's alive, as long as my niece's heart is beating she's alive." Meanwhile, the Children's Hospital spokesperson commented that maintaining a level of care was becoming difficult because post-mortem deterioration is occurring. The family just doesn't get it. Well, neither does CCC, apparently. We have to keep flogging that dead girl's heart for the sake of her human dignity.
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Post by stevec on Jan 8, 2014 22:24:03 GMT -6
The family just doesn't get it. Reportedly, they're distressed that the girl's body is not able to regulate temperature, a detail revealed in court documents accumulated from the half dozen evaluations which all declared her braindead. About the transfer to an undisclosed facility, her uncle remarked, "We believe that as long as her heart is still pumping she's alive, as long as my niece's heart is beating she's alive." Meanwhile, the Children's Hospital spokesperson commented that maintaining a level of care was becoming difficult because post-mortem deterioration is occurring. The family just doesn't get it. Well, neither does CCC, apparently. We have to keep flogging that dead girl's heart for the sake of her human dignity. Then again, she's dead, so she has no vested interest in her dignity. The parents' dignity is questionable at this point.
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jan 9, 2014 0:11:06 GMT -6
Well, neither does CCC, apparently. We have to keep flogging that dead girl's heart for the sake of her human dignity. Then again, she's dead, so she has no vested interest in her dignity. The parents' dignity is questionable at this point. I've "been in the arena", as TR would say. There are few things less dignified in medicine, in my experience, than a brain dead body on life support. But hell--I don't have access to Universal Truth. What the hell do I know?
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Post by malleodei on Jan 9, 2014 13:42:56 GMT -6
Well, neither does CCC, apparently. We have to keep flogging that dead girl's heart for the sake of her human dignity. Really? Just what do you think my position is on this? I've made it rather clear. Perhaps your comprehension ain't so good.
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jan 9, 2014 14:19:09 GMT -6
Well, neither does CCC, apparently. We have to keep flogging that dead girl's heart for the sake of her human dignity. Really? Just what do you think my position is on this? I've made it rather clear. Perhaps your comprehension ain't so good. You said that if a body without cognition can be maintained/sustained, it should be. To me this sounds like breath death isn't death. What was I supposed to understand instead?
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Post by malleodei on Jan 9, 2014 15:05:55 GMT -6
You said that if a body without cognition can be maintained/sustained, it should be. To me this sounds like breath death isn't death. What was I supposed to understand instead? Nope, I didn't say that. If you go back and read my posts, I said that extraordinary means to sustain life need not be maintained (but i don't think that the hospital should get to make that call). In the other thread (When is it not really life), I had cited St. basil the Great who is one of the earliest sources about extraordinary care and how it is not against charity that one not sustain life at all costs. My complaint was that the hospital (in my opinion) seemed to be ham-handed in taking legal steps to pull the plug when this family is obviously going through tremendous suffering. I think I also stated that there is no way that one would know what they would do until they were in that fire, but theoretically at least, on this case with these particular conditions, their daughter should be let go. However, I am not going to stand in judgement of them for holding on to something hopeless, for to do so is to judge their grief, in my opinion. I've taken no stand on what constitutes life vis-a-vis heart-beat, brain stem activity, etc. However, since you don't believe in a soul and I do, we shouldn't expect to agree on this anyway. That's not the issue, IMO. The issue is whether or not to let nature take it's course in completing and finishing the process of death of the body. I have no idea if the soul remains or not at this point (a question which would be moot to you. If the soul has departed, then the person is dead at least as far as the Christian faith is concerned). I think we both agree that that process should be allowed to pass, as regrettable and sad as that is.
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jan 9, 2014 15:32:31 GMT -6
You said that if a body without cognition can be maintained/sustained, it should be. To me this sounds like breath death isn't death. What was I supposed to understand instead? Nope, I didn't say that. If you go back and read my posts, I said that extraordinary means to sustain life need not be maintained (but i don't think that the hospital should get to make that call). Who should? Lawyers? Families who cannot accept the diagnosis of death?
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Post by stevec on Jan 9, 2014 17:53:13 GMT -6
Malleo,
Nature did take its course, it destroyed her brain. A judgement call was necessary, especially since the parents weren't accepting the diagnosis.
Jahi is receiving feeding and breathing tubes in a Catholic facility, where I assume she'll be spending her final days. If religion is the deciding factor, then I find this facility most appropriate. Nature is running its proper course once again.
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Post by showmedot on Jan 9, 2014 21:14:12 GMT -6
Yeah. The family is still insisting as long as her heart beats the girl is alive.
Either they're deep in denial which is likely under the circumstances or just don't comprehend that brain dead means they're causing outrageous sums to be expended on keeping a gradually deteriorating dead body functioning mechanically.
It's sad and really pathetic.
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Post by showmedot on Jan 9, 2014 21:44:30 GMT -6
You said that if a body without cognition can be maintained/sustained, it should be. To me this sounds like breath death isn't death. What was I supposed to understand instead? Nope, I didn't say that. Actually, you did on the "When is it not really a life?" thread. As follows: So, you're qualifying someone with no cognitive function as a life worthy of being sustained? Just as long as the body can be maintained without undue effort, we should consider that a life? Yep Unless I've misunderstood, you appear to be saying that a functional brain stem which keeps organs and basic bodily processes going is enough to constitute a life. So, yes, it was ethically necessary to keep feeding and medicating the functioning body that was all that was left of Terri Schiavo. I presume, then, that you'd say the same for Jahi McMath if she had a relatively unimpaired brain stem. Sustain the shell even though it's incapable of any action or reaction we call human life because the higher brain functions are non-existent. I'm baffled as to how that honors human dignity. It seems a travesty and a farce to me.
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jan 10, 2014 9:22:56 GMT -6
Actually, you did on the "When is it not really a life?" thread. As follows: Unless I've misunderstood, you appear to be saying that a functional brain stem which keeps organs and basic bodily processes going is enough to constitute a life. So, yes, it was ethically necessary to keep feeding and medicating the functioning body that was all that was left of Terri Schiavo. I presume, then, that you'd say the same for Jahi McMath if she had a relatively unimpaired brain stem. Sustain the shell even though it's incapable of any action or reaction we call human life because the higher brain functions are non-existent. I'm baffled as to how that honors human dignity. It seems a travesty and a farce to me. That was exactly the post I was referencing, Dot.
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Post by showmedot on Jan 10, 2014 10:12:48 GMT -6
I doubt that much will be learned by people who may eventually face a similarly tragic situation when they have groups like the Schiavo foundation eager to step in and finance the family's futile hopes.
What is sadder still is that Oakland Children's Hospital is made to look the villain in all this. SIX different doctors declared this girl dead, but the girl's family trumps them all by their thoroughly misguided insistence that she's still alive because machinery is sustaining a heartbeat.
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jan 10, 2014 10:26:03 GMT -6
I doubt that much will be learned by people who may eventually face a similarly tragic situation when they have groups like the Schiavo foundation eager to step in and finance the family's futile hopes. What is sadder still is that Oakland Children's Hospital is made to look the villain in all this. SIX different doctors declared this girl dead, but the girl's family trumps them all by their thoroughly misguided insistence that she's still alive because machinery is sustaining a heartbeat. According to CCC, the patient's death is not actionable information on the part of the hospital. Flog the corpse as long as the family insists. It's all about dignity.
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Post by showmedot on Jan 10, 2014 10:41:44 GMT -6
***Gruesome Alert***
I'm curious about reports that McMath's condition has "stabilized" since the transfer and the lawyer says she's "improving."
Could administration of nutrients and supplements retard deterioration of a brain dead body enough to constitute a semblance of stability, FB? It would seem to me that feeding a brain dead body couldn't do much since there's no hormonal response to aid assimilation of nutrients. Or does digestion proceed to some extent as long as respiration and circulation are maintained by machine?
(I'm dismissing the lawyer's insistence she's "improving" as self-serving hyperbole.)
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