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Post by stevec on Aug 2, 2014 14:43:46 GMT -6
I know I don't. Anybody stupid enough to travel to North Korea to spread the gospel deserves to be put in jail. Now, somebody will have to pay a ransom, don't look to me for support.
I hope the State Department reserves its energy and resources for more important issues, not these evangelical clowns.Bible left in North Korean sailor's club triggered U.S. tourist's arrest news.msn.com/world/bible-left-in-north-korean-sailors-club-triggered-us-tourists-arrest
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Post by woodrowli on Aug 2, 2014 15:22:32 GMT -6
A few simple rules
1. if you are in a Country, you follow their l;aws, even if you disagree with them
2. If you can not follow their laws, you keep out.
3. You break a law in any nation, you have committed a crime. You pay the price for your crime, you don't cry to Uncle Sam to get you out of your own mess.
No matter what one thinks of any Religious Evangelist in North Korea, they are criminals, not heroes or martyrs. They deserve the prescribed punishment no matter how much we think it is wrong.
A person who deliberately violates a law is a criminal. Makes no difference it that law makes it illegal to murder your neighbors kids or if it makes it illegal to spread any religious belief.
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Post by stevec on Aug 2, 2014 22:43:42 GMT -6
Knock it off, woodrowli, you're reading my mind and it's pissing me off.
Recently, I've been considering whether or not evangelicalism is a human right. Although I believe in freedom of religion, I don't believe people automatically have the right to take that liberty outside national borders. Rights are given by law makers, not by god, so it's wise for any potential evangelical to pay close attention to who is making the rules or carrying the guns when traveling abroad.
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Post by woodrowli on Aug 3, 2014 11:16:39 GMT -6
Knock it off, woodrowli, you're reading my mind and it's pissing me off. Recently, I've been considering whether or not evangelicalism is a human right. Although I believe in freedom of religion, I don't believe people automatically have the right to take that liberty outside national borders. Rights are given by law makers, not by god, so it's wise for any potential evangelical to pay close attention to who is making the rules or carrying the guns when traveling abroad. I knew you were going to say that. I am a Theist that objects highly about proselytizing, I do not see it as a basic human right. At a minimum it is obnoxious at it's worse it is an attempt to overthrow a Nation by covert means. I do not have the right to invade anyone's privacy for the purpose of getting them to believe as I do. I sure as shooting do not appreciate anyone coming into my house telling me how to worship. A Nation should have the same right a family has of controlling what occurs in their home. Actually North Korea is quite fair about their intolerance. All religions get treated equally, a Muslim would face the same thing if this had been a Qur'an instead of a Bible.
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Post by stevec on Aug 3, 2014 12:36:30 GMT -6
Woodrowli,
Muslims are going to be experiencing more difficult times in China. That's another regime that doesn't tolerate religious expression, especially when those desires are expressed with stabbing other citizens.
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Post by woodrowli on Aug 3, 2014 17:21:19 GMT -6
Woodrowli, Muslims are going to be experiencing more difficult times in China. That's another regime that doesn't tolerate religious expression, especially when those desires are expressed with stabbing other citizens. During the mid 1800s roughly 90% 0f all Muslims in China were exterminated during the Taiping Rebellion. Most of that comes from memory of what I was told by Chinese Muslims. I'll try to find a link about it. From what I've heard the Yangtze River flooded because it was blocked with bodies. Too many Chinese Muslims, are still carrying a grudge. We do have our share of hard heads that do not understands wars end. While there is persecution of the Uighurs, I do not condone violence as a solution.
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Post by stevec on Aug 3, 2014 23:01:42 GMT -6
Woodrowli, Muslims are going to be experiencing more difficult times in China. That's another regime that doesn't tolerate religious expression, especially when those desires are expressed with stabbing other citizens. During the mid 1800s roughly 90% 0f all Muslims in China were exterminated during the Taiping Rebellion. Most of that comes from memory of what I was told by Chinese Muslims. I'll try to find a link about it. From what I've heard the Yangtze River flooded because it was blocked with bodies. Too many Chinese Muslims, are still carrying a grudge. We do have our share of hard heads that do not understands wars end. While there is persecution of the Uighurs, I do not condone violence as a solution. Oh, I know a lot about the Taiping Rebellion, probably more than anyone you've met. The subject fascinates me and I've brought it up countless times in religious forums. What I don't know is what role Muslims had in the rebellion, aside from being caught in the middle. There were several battles where rivers were intentionally diverged or dammed up to cause flooding and whole armies either drowned or got bogged down and then slaughtered. Tnere was another battle where the river was set ablaze and the Taipings received a nasty defeat, losing a huge fleet with thousands of soldiers. Finally, the Taipings, while retreating, found themselves stranded on an island on swollen river with nowhere to go. The reports claim that the Taipings stood at attention while imperial forces pounded the island with artillery. With any of these battles it's easy to imagine many thousands of bodies clogging up rivers. The Taiping Rebellion is the most costly civil war in history in human terms, and is the perfect example of religious fanaticism gone wrong. China came damn close to being ruled by pseudo-christian dictators. If the Taipings hadn't been so arrogant while believing god was on their side, they could have won the war. It all started with one man having a vision of being Jesus' brother after accidently finding a tranlated portion of the Gospels, just one book, not all four. Over the course of the next 15 years 30-40 million died as a consequence.
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Post by stevec on Aug 3, 2014 23:41:37 GMT -6
Woodrowli,
I can imagine the Taipings brutally oppressing the Muslims, and imperial forces not giving a damn for Muslims caught in the middle. Both sides probaly considered Muslims expendable if in the way. If it's any consolation, the Taipings were annihilated, imperial forces suffered staggering loses, the imperial government left virtually bankrupt, and the whole country was left weaker and more subservient to British desires. All of China suffered, it wasn't just Muslim bodies floating down Chinese rivers.
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Post by woodrowli on Aug 4, 2014 6:45:13 GMT -6
Woodrowli, I can imagine the Taipings brutally oppressing the Muslims, and imperial forces not giving a damn for Muslims caught in the middle. Both sides probaly considered Muslims expendable if in the way. If it's any consolation, the Taipings were annihilated, imperial forces suffered staggering loses, the imperial government left virtually bankrupt, and the whole country was left weaker and more subservient to British desires. All of China suffered, it wasn't just Muslim bodies floating down Chinese rivers. I agree it was not just Muslims slaughtered. It does appear they were sort of caught in the cross-fire not specifically targeted but apparently found to be fair game by everyone. I did some hunting to see if I could find more about the Uighur during that era.
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Post by woodrowli on Aug 4, 2014 6:51:42 GMT -6
During the mid 1800s roughly 90% 0f all Muslims in China were exterminated during the Taiping Rebellion. Most of that comes from memory of what I was told by Chinese Muslims. I'll try to find a link about it. From what I've heard the Yangtze River flooded because it was blocked with bodies. Too many Chinese Muslims, are still carrying a grudge. We do have our share of hard heads that do not understands wars end. While there is persecution of the Uighurs, I do not condone violence as a solution. Oh, I know a lot about the Taiping Rebellion, probably more than anyone you've met. The subject fascinates me and I've brought it up countless times in religious forums. What I don't know is what role Muslims had in the rebellion, aside from being caught in the middle. There were several battles where rivers were intentionally diverged or dammed up to cause flooding and whole armies either drowned or got bogged down and then slaughtered. Tnere was another battle where the river was set ablaze and the Taipings received a nasty defeat, losing a huge fleet with thousands of soldiers. Finally, the Taipings, while retreating, found themselves stranded on an island on swollen river with nowhere to go. The reports claim that the Taipings stood at attention while imperial forces pounded the island with artillery. With any of these battles it's easy to imagine many thousands of bodies clogging up rivers. The Taiping Rebellion is the most costly civil war in history in human terms, and is the perfect example of religious fanaticism gone wrong. China came damn close to being ruled by pseudo-christian dictators. If the Taipings hadn't been so arrogant while believing god was on their side, they could have won the war. It all started with one man having a vision of being Jesus' brother after accidently finding a tranlated portion of the Gospels, just one book, not all four. Over the course of the next 15 years 30-40 million died as a consequence. I have not read in depth about the Taiping Rebellion, just enough to see how Bizarre it was and the huge death toll. I suspect that the rebellion was a very strong stimulus for China to become suspicious of all religion. Dang near enough to make the Pope become Atheist, if he had been living in China at that time.
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Post by ken on Aug 9, 2014 16:26:21 GMT -6
The people I feel sorry for are the North Koreans. Some people believe it is one of the most oppressive governments.
I'm not surprised that leaving a Bible is so threatening to the current government. However, the gentlemen in question knew the risk.
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Post by stevec on Aug 9, 2014 21:20:09 GMT -6
Ken,
I feel sorry for North Koreans also, but nothing for the missionary, he deserves his punishment.
Is spreading god's word worth one innocent life?
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Post by ken on Aug 10, 2014 4:04:34 GMT -6
Ken, I feel sorry for North Koreans also, but nothing for the missionary, he deserves his punishment. Is spreading god's word worth one innocent life? I guess it is relative. There are some laws you don't mind breaking because you believe it is wrong. The whole of our country is based on people who thought there were laws that were wrong and I am sure that if you were at a place that you thought they were wrong enough, even you wouldn't mind going to jail for it It is always worth it to bring hope and life to people. It was one innocent life (Jesus) who brought hope and life to the world. It's video like these that drive some people.
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Post by stevec on Aug 10, 2014 7:02:29 GMT -6
So if the guy who cleaned the bathroom brought the Bible home, and the authorities discovered he was allowing others to read it in his home, and consequently the police executed the bunch as they enjoyed the gospels, it's all good because the American missionary considered his actions the right thing to do? Killing people is what NK authorities do best and knowing that would make the missionary complicit in the murders.
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Post by ken on Aug 10, 2014 11:04:46 GMT -6
So if the guy who cleaned the bathroom brought the Bible home, and the authorities discovered he was allowing others to read it in his home, and consequently the police executed the bunch as they enjoyed the gospels, it's all good because the American missionary considered his actions the right thing to do? Killing people is what NK authorities do best and knowing that would make the missionary complicit in the murders. Let me rephrase what you just said... The Christians that are being murdered in Iraq is a direct consequence of Obama's Administration's position of just creating a vacuum by withdrawing all support and Obama got into office because you voted for him and therefore you are complicit in the murders. I guess if you are twisted in your logic, it can make sense in some sort of contorted way.
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