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Post by stevec on Jul 20, 2014 11:48:15 GMT -6
I probably would have cheated(just a bit) by putting ball bearings in my pillow. I guess it's best I never get invited to these events, god must looking out for someone.
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Post by ken on Jul 20, 2014 13:34:10 GMT -6
I already know we are a great bunch of people, I'm simply trying to take advantage of what may be my last chance of getting a meaningful answer. My point is, Ken, if god causes it to rain on the just and unjust, and if the just and unjust share the same amount of prosperity(however you define it), what is the point of believing in god? If marriage and diligent work result in prosperity, what does god have to do with having a prosperous life? Lastly, yes, I do expect to be punished for being an atheist, if your version of god exists. If you claim that god blesses people with prosperity, then there should be a litmus test for that effect. You and I represent prosperity, good health, and happiness, albeit on opposite sides of the spiritual spectrum, where's the litmus test for god's blessings? You can test prosperity for brains, brawn, hard work, and luck, but there's no test for god. Why is that? Punishment or lack of prosperity, at least, would be a good test for god's blessing, but lacking that, one can only conclude that brains, brawn, hard work, and luck are responsible for my success. I don't think you answered my last question (before I answer yours) -- does your wife exercise a faith?
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Post by ken on Jul 20, 2014 13:35:29 GMT -6
It is what Steve is good at.
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Post by showmedot on Jul 20, 2014 13:38:02 GMT -6
What does Steve's wife have to do with this? I have no idea why what she believes is at all relevant.
Besides, unless your memory is failing, you know Steve's wife is Jewish, so why are you asking a question you already know the answer to?
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Post by ken on Jul 20, 2014 16:51:41 GMT -6
What does Steve's wife have to do with this? I have no idea why what she believes is at all relevant. Besides, unless your memory is failing, you know Steve's wife is Jewish, so why are you asking a question you already know the answer to? Because I didn't remember what faith she had. Thanks for the update... I will answer shortly... (I'm going to watch a movie with my wife)
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Post by stevec on Jul 20, 2014 17:42:47 GMT -6
I already know we are a great bunch of people, I'm simply trying to take advantage of what may be my last chance of getting a meaningful answer. My point is, Ken, if god causes it to rain on the just and unjust, and if the just and unjust share the same amount of prosperity(however you define it), what is the point of believing in god? If marriage and diligent work result in prosperity, what does god have to do with having a prosperous life? Lastly, yes, I do expect to be punished for being an atheist, if your version of god exists. If you claim that god blesses people with prosperity, then there should be a litmus test for that effect. You and I represent prosperity, good health, and happiness, albeit on opposite sides of the spiritual spectrum, where's the litmus test for god's blessings? You can test prosperity for brains, brawn, hard work, and luck, but there's no test for god. Why is that? Punishment or lack of prosperity, at least, would be a good test for god's blessing, but lacking that, one can only conclude that brains, brawn, hard work, and luck are responsible for my success. I don't think you answered my last question (before I answer yours) -- does your wife exercise a faith? Yes. She's Jewish and doesn't consider Jesus much of anything.
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Post by ken on Jul 21, 2014 8:45:32 GMT -6
I already know we are a great bunch of people, I'm simply trying to take advantage of what may be my last chance of getting a meaningful answer. My point is, Ken, if god causes it to rain on the just and unjust, and if the just and unjust share the same amount of prosperity(however you define it), what is the point of believing in God? You don't have to believe in God. It is your spiritual free-will prerogative. However, there is a here-after and you have the right to decide to live with Him or without Him. That is the biggest difference. Like gravity, hey are the laws that God put into existence. Those laws are still valid if you are a believer or not. That is what happens when you don't factor in all of the variable. You place both yourself and myself into the equation at the expense of your wife as if she has nothing do in the equation and yet God has made the two of you one (even as she took on your last name in recognition of that spiritual truth). Scripturally, a believer in God produces a salt effect (an ingredient of covenant in the Tannakh) of sanctifying and preserving. She has done that and God honors her faith by blessing you even if you are not a believer. That is true only within the parameters that you have set. Answered prayers, intimacy in our worship, free flow of communication between God and ourselves is part of our test. What it was like when we didn't have that relationship vs what our lives are like after beginning our relationship is our test and our results. Remember, when I accepted my Messiah, I said "I will test the sucker (the word of God) and if it isn't true, I will find out soon enough. Still testing and still working. You have left out part of the equation. "Punishment" was already executed on Jesus on your behalf. Like the goat that was sacrificed (and lambs and bulls) for forgiveness of sins with our Jewish brothers, even so Jesus became the same for you and I. So your premiss isn't valid in our perspective. (I'm sure that in yours it is--but we are talking about Christianity)
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Post by ken on Jul 21, 2014 8:46:38 GMT -6
I don't think you answered my last question (before I answer yours) -- does your wife exercise a faith? Yes. She's Jewish and doesn't consider Jesus much of anything. Dot beat you to the punch, but thanks anyways.
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Post by stevec on Jul 21, 2014 9:56:02 GMT -6
Yes. She's Jewish and doesn't consider Jesus much of anything. Dot beat you to the punch, but thanks anyways. Soooo.................I get the salt effect and all god's blessing, even as an atheist, because my wife is faithful. Lucky me.............tell me again, what is the downside of being an atheist? And my wife's faithfulness has been rewarded how? Being Jewish, she doesn't believe in the same god as you, thinks the claim of Jesus' divinity is a cruel joke on civilization, yet she gets so much of god's salt sprinkled her way that even an atheist's life becomes rather tasty.................I don't get it. What's the point of being a believer, if someone like me can reap all the rewards? What's the point of being a Christian when a Jew can reap the same prosperous life, again, however you want to define prosperous life? As far as I can see, believing in god, and more specifically, becoming a Christian at this point can only only screw things up.
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Post by woodrowli on Jul 21, 2014 10:50:02 GMT -6
Dot beat you to the punch, but thanks anyways. Soooo.................I get the salt effect and all god's blessing, even as an atheist, because my wife is faithful. Lucky me.............tell me again, what is the downside of being an atheist? And my wife's faithfulness has been rewarded how? Being Jewish, she doesn't believe in the same god as you, thinks the claim of Jesus' divinity is a cruel joke on civilization, yet she gets so much of god's salt sprinkled her way that even an atheist's life becomes rather tasty.................I don't get it. What's the point of being a believer, if someone like me can reap all the rewards? What's the point of being a Christian when a Jew can reap the same prosperous life, again, however you want to define prosperous life? As far as I can see, believing in god, and more specifically, becoming a Christian at this point can only only screw things up. As long as a person is a sincere Atheist, and has actually verified through honest searching that God(swt) does not exist, I do not believe they will be held accountable. However if they just decide to be an Atheist with no searching that might be a different story. In Islam we believe we are only accountable for what we are capable of doing and have reason to have knowledge of. That don't get you off the hook, your still accountable for doing what you know to be right and avoiding what you know to be wrong.
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Post by ken on Jul 21, 2014 18:14:39 GMT -6
Dot beat you to the punch, but thanks anyways. Soooo.................I get the salt effect and all god's blessing, even as an atheist, because my wife is faithful. Lucky me.............tell me again, what is the downside of being an atheist? And my wife's faithfulness has been rewarded how? Being Jewish, she doesn't believe in the same god as you, thinks the claim of Jesus' divinity is a cruel joke on civilization, yet she gets so much of god's salt sprinkled her way that even an atheist's life becomes rather tasty.................I don't get it. What's the point of being a believer, if someone like me can reap all the rewards? What's the point of being a Christian when a Jew can reap the same prosperous life, again, however you want to define prosperous life? As far as I can see, believing in god, and more specifically, becoming a Christian at this point can only only screw things up. I haven't seen a U-Haul following a hurst. Earthly things are very temporal as we all know.
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Post by stevec on Jul 21, 2014 20:09:15 GMT -6
Soooo.................I get the salt effect and all god's blessing, even as an atheist, because my wife is faithful. Lucky me.............tell me again, what is the downside of being an atheist? And my wife's faithfulness has been rewarded how? Being Jewish, she doesn't believe in the same god as you, thinks the claim of Jesus' divinity is a cruel joke on civilization, yet she gets so much of god's salt sprinkled her way that even an atheist's life becomes rather tasty.................I don't get it. What's the point of being a believer, if someone like me can reap all the rewards? What's the point of being a Christian when a Jew can reap the same prosperous life, again, however you want to define prosperous life? As far as I can see, believing in god, and more specifically, becoming a Christian at this point can only only screw things up. As long as a person is a sincere Atheist, and has actually verified through honest searching that God(swt) does not exist, I do not believe they will be held accountable. However if they just decide to be an Atheist with no searching that might be a different story. In Islam we believe we are only accountable for what we are capable of doing and have reason to have knowledge of. That don't get you off the hook, your still accountable for doing what you know to be right and avoiding what you know to be wrong. Jews have a similar perspective. Someone once asked me why I hadn't converted to Judaism, when I had put so much effort into raising my children Jewish. I told them I wouldn't lie to anyone when asked if I believed in god, especially a Rabbi, who would have spent a lot of time and effort teaching me. They said, "oh, you don't have to believe in god to be a good Jew. You can be an atheist, all that's required to be a good Jew is to follow the laws of Judaism."
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Post by woodrowli on Jul 21, 2014 21:27:21 GMT -6
As long as a person is a sincere Atheist, and has actually verified through honest searching that God(swt) does not exist, I do not believe they will be held accountable. However if they just decide to be an Atheist with no searching that might be a different story. In Islam we believe we are only accountable for what we are capable of doing and have reason to have knowledge of. That don't get you off the hook, your still accountable for doing what you know to be right and avoiding what you know to be wrong. Jews have a similar perspective. Someone once asked me why I hadn't converted to Judaism, when I had put so much effort into raising my children Jewish. I told them I wouldn't lie to anyone when asked if I believed in god, especially a Rabbi, who would have spent a lot of time and effort teaching me. They said, "oh, you don't have to believe in god to be a good Jew. You can be an atheist, all that's required to be a good Jew is to follow the laws of Judaism." We do have a lot in common with Jews. I believe that is why there is so much animosity between us. We seem to have a bit of "Sibling Rivalry"
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Post by showmedot on Jul 22, 2014 3:01:07 GMT -6
Weeeellll, that you don't have to believe in God to be a good Jew is a Reform Jewish attitude really. As a Conservative or certainly an Orthodox Jew, if you don't believe, you'd better keep your mouth very much shut about that.
Anyway, that's what hubby said is the prevailing attitude in the Conservative bordering on Orthodox tradition he grew up in. Reform Jews are regarded as nominally Jewish and little more.
When we talked about my possibly converting when we decided to marry, I said I couldn't do it because I thought too many of the laws were just stupid.
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Post by ken on Jul 23, 2014 16:54:45 GMT -6
We do have a lot in common with Jews. I believe that is why there is so much animosity between us. We seem to have a bit of "Sibling Rivalry" I always wondered if the root was being rejected by father Abraham as the first-born for the second born Isaac creating the sibling rivalry though both received a God blessing.
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