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Racism
Mar 21, 2014 10:57:11 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 10:57:11 GMT -6
I'm probably not going out onto a limb too much here, but I think the actual evil of racism is unfortunately overshadowed the pervasive use of alleged "racism" as an offensive weapon. There was an interesting editorial in the Wall Street Journal comparing the following two quotes. One quote and it's author have been widely reviled as racist. The other has not. Are there profound differences that are invisible to me?
A. “…antipoverty assistance can often create "incentives not to work and to stay where you are, that's not what we want in society. . . . There are a lot of people slipping through the cracks in America that are not reaching their potential... "We have got this tailspin of culture, in our inner cities in particular, of men not working and just generations of men not even thinking about working or learning the value and the culture of work, so there's a cultural problem that has to be dealt with."
B. "We know young black men are twice as likely as young white men to be 'disconnected'—not in school, not working. We've got to reconnect them. We've got to give more of these young men access to mentors. We've got to continue to encourage responsible fatherhood. We've got to provide more pathways to apply to college or find a job. We can keep them from falling through the cracks."
Jim
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Racism
Mar 21, 2014 11:06:19 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 11:06:19 GMT -6
I'm probably not going out onto a limb too much here, but I think the actual evil of racism is unfortunately overshadowed the pervasive use of alleged "racism" as an offensive weapon. There was an interesting editorial in the Wall Street Journal comparing the following two quotes. One quote and it's author have been widely reviled as racist. The other has not. Are there profound differences that are invisible to me? A. “…antipoverty assistance can often create "incentives not to work and to stay where you are, that's not what we want in society. . . . There are a lot of people slipping through the cracks in America that are not reaching their potential... "We have got this tailspin of culture, in our inner cities in particular, of men not working and just generations of men not even thinking about working or learning the value and the culture of work, so there's a cultural problem that has to be dealt with." B. "We know young black men are twice as likely as young white men to be 'disconnected'—not in school, not working. We've got to reconnect them. We've got to give more of these young men access to mentors. We've got to continue to encourage responsible fatherhood. We've got to provide more pathways to apply to college or find a job. We can keep them from falling through the cracks." Jim And then there is this. It is a real puzzle to me why white women of no ill will who happen to belly dance are inherently racists. "Women I have confronted about this have said, “But I have been dancing for 15 years! This is something I have built a huge community on.” These women are more interested in their investment in belly dancing than in questioning and examining how their appropriation of the art causes others harm. To them, I can only say, I’m sure there are people who have been unwittingly racist for 15 years. It’s not too late. Find another form of self-expression. Make sure you’re not appropriating someone else’s."
"But, here’s the thing. Arab women are not vessels for white women to pour themselves and lose themselves in; we are not bangles or eyeliner or tiny bells on hips. We are human beings. This dance form is originally ours, and does not exist so that white women can have a better sense of community; can gain a deeper sense of sisterhood with each other; can reclaim their bodies; can celebrate their sexualities; can perform for the female gaze. Just because a white woman doesn’t profit from her performance doesn’t mean she’s not appropriating a culture. And, ultimately, the question is this: Why does a white woman’s sisterhood, her self-reclamation, her celebration, have to happen on Arab women’s backs?" linkI understand that cultural mocking such as a tacky belly-dance burlesque or the insipid tomahawk chop Braves fans employ is inherently racist. The participants are mocking based upon race. I certainly don't see that honest, respectful, loving "cultural appropriation" is racist though. All cultures appropriate from each other. Just because whites appropriate too shouldn't make it racist by definition... But it does in the view of the author. link Of course I'm a 52 year old white dude, so I suppose everything I do is racist ab initio. Sometimes I feel it's just too tough to keep score. J
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Racism
Mar 21, 2014 11:57:04 GMT -6
Post by woodrowli on Mar 21, 2014 11:57:04 GMT -6
All people are Racist. One of the few times I think the word "all" is valid to use. It is just that some people recognize they are racist and do not act upon their racism.
Now going back to topic. I agree with you some people are using alleged "Racism" as an offensive weapon. It is an easy weapon to use as any act a person disagrees with can be termed racist. It is an emotionally charged allegation and one difficult to defend against.
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Racism
Mar 21, 2014 12:31:41 GMT -6
Post by stevec on Mar 21, 2014 12:31:41 GMT -6
I'm probably not going out onto a limb too much Iere, but I think the actual evil of racism is unfortunately overshadowed the pervasive use of alleged "racism" as an offensive weapon. There was an interesting editorial in the Wall Street Journal comparing the following two quotes. One quote and it's author have been widely reviled as racist. The other has not. Are there profound differences that are invisible to me? A. “…antipoverty assistance can often create "incentives not to work and to stay where you are, that's not what we want in society. . . . There are a lot of people slipping through the cracks in America that are not reaching their potential... "We have got this tailspin of culture, in our inner cities in particular, of men not working and just generations of men not even thinking about working or learning the value and the culture of work, so there's a cultural problem that has to be dealt with."B. "We know young black men are twice as likely as young white men to be 'disconnected'—not in school, not working. We've got to reconnect them. We've got to give more of these young men access to mentors. We've got to continue to encourage responsible fatherhood. We've got to provide more pathways to apply to college or find a job. We can keep them from falling through the cracks."Jim I didn't google the quotes, so I don't know who to attribute the quotes to, but I've heard this issue discussed by both whites and blacks. I believe Clarence Thomas said something similar to (A) during his confirmation hearings, and (B) could have been said by any Black leader speaking to Black audience. If I had to guess, I say that (A) was a reply by a White speaker because he used the euphemism "inner cities", and he got labeled as racist. If so, I'd have a good laugh because Clarence Thomas said pretty much the same thing. (B) was no doubt part of a speech made by a black person, because only a Black person would have the balls to mention "Black" in a public venue in relation to not working and not going to school. This person was not considered racist, I suspect. I'm off to Google to see if I'm close.
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Racism
Mar 21, 2014 12:49:10 GMT -6
Post by stevec on Mar 21, 2014 12:49:10 GMT -6
Yup, (A) Ryan, (B) Obama
Any White politician making speech (A) during the civil rights movement of the 60's would be hailed as a civil rights hero by all sides.
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Racism
Mar 21, 2014 12:57:52 GMT -6
Post by stevec on Mar 21, 2014 12:57:52 GMT -6
I do have a problem the team name "Redskins", other than that, those who have a problem woth the tomahawk chop and other cultures stealing belly dancing customs need to get a life.
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Racism
Mar 21, 2014 13:17:13 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 13:17:13 GMT -6
All people are Racist. One of the few times I think the word "all" is valid to use. It is just that some people recognize they are racist and do not act upon their racism. Now going back to topic. I agree with you some people are using alleged "Racism" as an offensive weapon. It is an easy weapon to use as any act a person disagrees with can be termed racist. It is an emotionally charged allegation and one difficult to defend against. Hi Woodrowli: I suppose all people are racist if the definition is "race aware" or "conscious of racial distinctions" This word however, (as I believe the definition to be) is so charged with malicious and evil connotation, that I don't think it is fair to apply the word racist to those who don't act as a racist would act. I apologize if I should know this, but are you of Middle Eastern ancestry? If so, what do you think of the argument that "cultural appropriation" of an Arab art form is "racism"? Heck, if you are not of Middle Eastern ancestry, I suppose the author of those linked articles would accuse you of racism for appropriating a religion which is not "yours"! I'm trying to get my head around her position and it is not easy. I can appreciate the argument that cross-cultural appropriation is unseemly, for example if me and Steve started a rap group it wouldn't be pretty, but racist? I don't understand that. Jim
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Racism
Mar 21, 2014 13:25:07 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 13:25:07 GMT -6
I do have a problem the team name "Redskins", other than that, those who have a problem woth the tomahawk chop and other cultures stealing belly dancing customs need to get a life. Redskins is complicated. I would put myself in the anti-redskin camp. I did read a Rick Riley article a few months ago detailing the many predominately Native American high school teams who proudly endorse the Redskin mascot. I gather that the derogatory/OK nature of that term varies across different Native American groups. If I owned the Washington team I'd change the name because it certainly is offensive to many. linkJ
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Racism
Mar 21, 2014 14:57:32 GMT -6
Post by woodrowli on Mar 21, 2014 14:57:32 GMT -6
All people are Racist. One of the few times I think the word "all" is valid to use. It is just that some people recognize they are racist and do not act upon their racism. Now going back to topic. I agree with you some people are using alleged "Racism" as an offensive weapon. It is an easy weapon to use as any act a person disagrees with can be termed racist. It is an emotionally charged allegation and one difficult to defend against. Hi Woodrowli: I suppose all people are racist if the definition is "race aware" or "conscious of racial distinctions" This word however, (as I believe the definition to be) is so charged with malicious and evil connotation, that I don't think it is fair to apply the word racist to those who don't act as a racist would act. I apologize if I should know this, but are you of Middle Eastern ancestry? If so, what do you think of the argument that "cultural appropriation" of an Arab art form is "racism"? Heck, if you are not of Middle Eastern ancestry, I suppose the author of those linked articles would accuse you of racism for appropriating a religion which is not "yours"! I'm trying to get my head around her position and it is not easy. I can appreciate the argument that cross-cultural appropriation is unseemly, for example if me and Steve started a rap group it wouldn't be pretty, but racist? I don't understand that. Jim I'm more Mongolian of Lithuanian Ancestry. My Family is predominatly Lietuva Lipkas (Lithuanian Tatar) The Lipkas are from a mixture of the "Golden Horde" (Genghis Khan) and the "White Horde" (Alexander the Great) my mother had predominatly Mongolian features, I got stuck with Caucasian features and look more like typical Polish, but I identify more with the Monolian side of the Family. I also identify closely with Native Americans as my present wife is Native American and my deceased wife also was. It is quite interesting about the "Belly Dancing" part although it is from Arabic Culture it is virtually forbidden in Islam. Definitely forbidden for public display among mixed genders. Islam pretty much frowns upon it unless the woman was doing it alone only for the purpose of exercise. Also the use of Bells or other music instruments is forbidden in Islam. A Muslim Arab woman should not see it as racist as we are not to consider anything as belonging to any one race.
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Racism
Mar 21, 2014 15:11:30 GMT -6
Post by Flitzerbiest on Mar 21, 2014 15:11:30 GMT -6
Why should Islam care if a woman belly dances?
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Racism
Mar 21, 2014 16:29:03 GMT -6
Post by woodrowli on Mar 21, 2014 16:29:03 GMT -6
Why should Islam care if a woman belly dances? As individuals most of it will simply say it is between the woman and God(swt). the main concern is if she is doing it in private or publicly. It sort of violates the dress code for public appearances. But I think for many of us the concern is the use of musical accompaniment. You are going to get mixed opinions about the use of music. The opinions range from it being Haram (forbidden) to Makruh (No sin, but blessing gained for avoiding) to Halal(Permitted in some instances) It eventually comes down to being between the individual and Allaah(swt). The guideline a Muslim follows is in the following of the Sunnah or how the original companions of Muhammad(saws) lived. We feel they were the most pious of Muslims and it is a blessing to attempt to live as they did, if possible. Most of us can't do such, a wise man does not ride a camel on the interstate. The Sabah (original companions) avoided the use of music. It should be noted Muhammad(saws) did not interfere in music usage by non-Muslims. There is a Hadith in which Muhammad(saws) would not allow his companions to ask the people at a wedding festival to stop their music. They were told to allow them to enjoy themselves as it was not their concern. While there is no specific prohibition of music instruments in the Qur'an it is considered Sunnah to avoid it. Sins are not always clear cut black and white in Islam there are levels of responsibility Fiqh--It must be done Mustahab--not required but a blessing to do Halal-- All things that are permitted Makruh--Not forbidden but a blessing to avoid doing Haram--Forbidden to do The Wahabbi/Salafi view all things as being Fiqh, Halal or Haram with nothing in between. They make the Mustahab Fiqh and the Makruh Haram.
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Racism
Mar 22, 2014 8:01:35 GMT -6
Post by Flitzerbiest on Mar 22, 2014 8:01:35 GMT -6
Interesting. John Calvin also forbade musical accompaniment. Your prophet is in perfectly miserable company.
Thus speaks the Prophet Flitzerbiest:
Let he who restrains music be cursed for the fool he is.
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Racism
Mar 22, 2014 9:41:47 GMT -6
Post by woodrowli on Mar 22, 2014 9:41:47 GMT -6
Interesting. John Calvin also forbade musical accompaniment. Your prophet is in perfectly miserable company. Thus speaks the Prophet Flitzerbiest: Let he who restrains music be cursed for the fool he is. It is something some Muslims adhere to and some don't. It is not considered a major sin. For myself I never was a Music lover and after I began loosing my hearing it has been a moot point. Nothing that even concerns me. Can't say I miss music as I never liked it. When I began loosing my hearing at about 30 years old I never even noticed I was not able to hear most Music instruments. Always felt it was a blessing during my kids teen-years. It is difficult to explain the Islamic concept of sin as it is not quite the same as the Judaic or Christian concepts. We have the belief that everyone who dies as a Muslim will go to heaven. But we also have a concept of rewards and punishments. Our goal in life is to do as many good deeds as possible. Listening to Music instruments can detract from doing good deeds. Time can be better spent than sitting idle listening to music. The scholars do have different opinions about Music instruments. Most accept singing can be rewarding and it is permissable to use drums and duffs to accompany the singing. A few fatwas: ( A fatwa is a scholastic opinion based upon Qur'anic rulings) Here is from a Sufi Scholar (it is long so I'm just posting the introduction). SOURCEHere is an excerpt from what I believe is either a Salafi or Deobandi scholar SOURCEThere are very many Fatwas regarding music. But a fatwa is not a commandment, they are opinions. We are to examine all things carefully (for example, fatwas and our own searching) and make our own determinations as to what we our self have verified to be true. Islam is not a cookbook with recipes for salvation, nor is it a list of commandments. It is all about personal responsibility and up to each of us to always seek what is the truth. It is not a religion for followers as we each have the burden of justifying our actions or inaction. One of the reasons shariah is essential in an Islamic nation, as without it we would all be making our own laws. We are a hard headed free thinking bunch that need strict guidelines to keep from setting up our own rules. Shariah is quite different from what you see in Saudi and Iran or what the taliban call Shariah. It is actually quite democratic, especially in the Hanafi Madhab of Shariah which stresses leniency and the use of logic. The Hanafi madhab is the one of preference for most Sunni and Sufi. The strictest and most legalistic Madhab is the Hanbali only 2 countries (Saudi and Qatar) follow the Hanbali to any extent. Iran follows Jafa'ari which is not considered a legal Madhab to Sunni. The Taliban call Wahabbi'ism Shariah and Wahabbi'ism also has a strong influence on Saudi laws.
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Racism
Mar 22, 2014 12:31:29 GMT -6
Post by Flitzerbiest on Mar 22, 2014 12:31:29 GMT -6
[Time can be better spent than sitting idle listening to music. Hardly. It is one of the noblest activities open to man. Can't you admit that you prophet said (or really, supposedly said) some things that were utter bullshit?
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Racism
Mar 22, 2014 12:46:01 GMT -6
Post by woodrowli on Mar 22, 2014 12:46:01 GMT -6
[Time can be better spent than sitting idle listening to music. Hardly. It is one of the noblest activities open to man. Can't you admit that you prophet said (or really, supposedly said) some things that were utter bullshit? Nope, as Muhammad(saws) did not address music very much. there was no definitive ruling as to if Music is or is not allowed. As you can see in the 2 fatwas I posted, it all comes down to the individual's own interpretation. Muhammad(saws) did not seem to see any issue about it. I personally feel music is a waste of time. But that is based on personal feelings flavored by my own bias of disliking music. I have never liked music and dreaded the weekly music classes in grade school.
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