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Post by ken on Nov 8, 2015 19:37:56 GMT -6
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Post by stevec on Nov 10, 2015 22:50:46 GMT -6
I don't put much faith in the testimony of the Bible club leader, who was the only person interviewed. If I were to say to you that atheism changes people lives for the better, would you believe me? Would you require more evidence?
The Bible club leader is probably working towards a job as a preacher. Probably looks up to the likes of Benny Hinn and Ken Copeland.
Atheism has been very good for me, I lack nothing physically and spiritually. Disprove that.
Faith changed your life, filled a hole, I don't doubt that. Whether or not it was chemical reaction in your body from your imagined acceptance of a higher power or god actually blessing you is up for debate. Since no one has actually seen god at work, I'm guessing it's the former, since that option has the only chance of being confirmed. Was it the message or god? There's a very big difference. People lives are changed all the time by messages, words, ideas, accidents, chance encounters. Those things exist in the physical world, so your change was simply another one of those things.
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Post by ken on Nov 11, 2015 6:20:52 GMT -6
the fact that the Principals of the schools want them says it all. It is reminiscent of the true story of the Cross and the Switchblade in the New York gangs on yesteryear.
Atheism ultimately has no moral authority for it has no plumb line.
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Post by stevec on Nov 11, 2015 13:44:40 GMT -6
the fact that the Principals of the schools want them says It is reminiscent of the true story of the Cross and the Switchblade in the New York gangs on yesteryear. Atheism ultimately has no moral authority for it has no plumb line. I didn't see any quotes from principals or their names listed. You have just the word of a kid trying to make a name for himself in the evangelical field - something to put on a resume. It may be reminiscent to the Cross/Switchblade story to you, but it reminds me of the young boy who had a near death experience in a hospital and claimed to have gone to heaven a few years ago. After his pastor father made a few million in book sales and selling the movie rights, the kid admitted it was all a lie. Sorry to say, but truth in evangelical circles is a pretty sketchy proposition. If the god of the Bible is your moral authority, then i consider myself lucky not to need it. I've got my own plumb line.
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Post by ken on Nov 12, 2015 13:15:46 GMT -6
Can I assume you made no attempt to investigate whether it was true or not?
As far as NY is concerned, it is now a matter of history that cannot be changed.
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Post by stevec on Nov 12, 2015 23:15:53 GMT -6
Can I assume you made no attempt to investigate whether it was true or not? As far as NY is concerned, it is now a matter of history that cannot be changed. You're article mentions supposed events in CA, which is far away from me here in RI. If the writer wanted to provide truth, he/she had every opportunity to produce evidence in the article, which would have included names, quotes and perhaps police input. Instead we were provided with nothing more than a fluff piece. Good journalists go the extra distance. I don't doubt "The Message" changes lives. Some people are influenced by such things and some people aren't. Big deal, a gang banger changed his life, the odds favor some conversions when large numbers of gang members are considered. Flip a coin and at some point it will stand on its edge. Let me know when an entire city's gang population is influenced by "The Message". Up to this point only a coin's edge worth has been provided. One is not a significant number when the supernatural is concerned. I'm looking for super results, results only a god can provide. Likewise, your NYC cross/switchblade story is the story of one minister and one gang member. That was long ago, and if you were more concerned with the truth , you'd notice that gangs are still flourishing everywhere. "The Message" is losing. One conversion amoung millions of gang members still doing their thing, with millions more having been victimized by those activities. I've said many times - judge the results.
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Post by ken on Nov 13, 2015 6:46:41 GMT -6
It is apparent that you have not read the historical account of Wilkerson in the Cross and the Switchblade. The current "Teen Challenge", that is nation wide, is a result of that impact that affected more than one gang in NYC. It is also noted that the only people, as in California, who are making inroads to gangs and addressing effectively the problems of "holes" in these youth are Christians carrying the message of the grace of God through Jesus Christ.
I am reminded of "Angie" at the age of 16 who had an abusive drug user of a husband. Having one child and being pregnant, had a gun with two bullets mussing over using one for the child and the other one for her and her pregnancy if this is what "life is all about". Today, age approx 25, has a fantastic job supplying all of her needs and then some with two wonderful children all thanks to the message of the grace of God through Jesus Christ.
It isn't unusual for some people to be impacted and others not. Jesus went into his own city and couldn't do any great miracle because of the free will that God has given man. As a matter of fact, because of the free will that God has given man, He is powerless to even change you.
As Jesus well put it, "The sick have need of a doctor, not the righteous". If your hole is filled up, no impact is possible. Some people fill their holes with drugs and are satisfied with it.
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Post by stevec on Nov 14, 2015 9:49:57 GMT -6
Again, Ken, the Message can't move mountains. With one person here, and one person there, they're just statistical blips on the screen. The Message is a placebo, with the same results you might expect from a placebo. When are you going to show me supernatural results. One anecdote here and another there won't cut it. I know a women in AZ who has been severely handicapped since birth, her whole life revolves her church. Her acceptance and support from her church community has been phenomenal, you would PTL over what is happening there and offer her story to me as another sign of god's grace. I see it as beautiful people doing wonderful things. You can find people like that in every community and every religion. Some people's brains are wired for community service and religious activity and some are not. Statistics may bear the same proportion in every city. Until you can move an entire city in one direction permanently, you have no case for divine intervention. Free will is just an excuse, Ken, a poor one. Free will is something you offer because The Message's failures don't make sense when reconciled with god's omnipotence.
Atheism is irrelevant in our discussions. Perhaps atheism is an empty vessel, I don't know, I don't care. If you're trying to make the point that belief in god makes sense by default, then your reasoning is severely flawed. It would be like saying I can eat a nutritious meal by eating rocks. My stomach is full by default, now i'm healthy. God built this atheist that you've had the same discussions with all these years. God wired my brain differently from yours, you can't escape that sort of reasoning without making excuses.
Bring up drugs and even whores, if extreme vices are what you need to do to catagorize an theists life. I don't drink, I don't take drugs, I don't gamble, I don't chase women...............I live a happy life. Where's this void I'm supposed to be filling with some hidden vice that can only be exorcized by god's message? Compared to my youth, I'm living the life of a saint. How is The Message going to help what doesn't need fixing? I got a lesson/message somewhere in my life, I guess you could call it maturity, or ar least I would - no god involved.
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Post by ken on Nov 16, 2015 7:19:28 GMT -6
There is a saying that there are buzzards and honey birds. Both find what they are looking for. It is hardly "one person here, and one person there" - it is what we look for. Your position of placebo is an opinion which you have every right to have and, for that matter, it is just as possible that it is yours that is a placebo. There are more than enough supernatural results if one is looking for it.
Even your statement of being "wired" is a statement of a God creation. Free will isn't an excuse it is a reality and how you interpret it is just as much a demonstration of free will as it is with the understanding of God's omnipotence.
However, I really am fine for you to believe as you want to believe. This is America, this is free will and Christianity allows for you to have that position.
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Post by stevec on Nov 16, 2015 21:19:37 GMT -6
No Ken, our secular government allows me to have/keep that position. Christianity has nothing to do with it, just check the historical record. For a more current example, just ask any gay person, lol.
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Post by ken on Nov 17, 2015 5:39:52 GMT -6
No Ken, our secular government allows me to have/keep that position. Christianity has nothing to do with it, just check the historical record. For a more current example, just ask any gay person, lol. Sorry, Steve... Secular is what this is becoming, a country with no moral compass where whatever you think is OK, is OK. To say that there is evil is to say there is good. To say there is good is to say there is a transcendental moral line. To say there is a transcendental moral line is to say that there is a God. The very thing you say there isn't.
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Post by stevec on Nov 18, 2015 0:57:50 GMT -6
No Ken, our secular government allows me to have/keep that position. Christianity has nothing to do with it, just check the historical record. For a more current example, just ask any gay person, lol. Sorry, Steve... Secular is what this is becoming, a country with no moral compass where whatever you think is OK, is OK. To say that there is evil is to say there is good. To say there is good is to say there is a transcendental moral line. To say there is a transcendental moral line is to say that there is a God. The very thing you say there isn't. If that's true, Ken, what's stopping me from burning places of worship to the ground. Obviously I have a beef with religion, so what's stopping me from acting on my evil impulses? Heck, I have no fear of answering for any crime when I die, so what's stopping me from robbing, raping, and killing to my heart's content? God? Do you think I care about a supposed god thinks? Morality is a human condition, no god needed. I've seen what non secularism has done to the Islamic world, what non secularism did to the Jews and other non- Christians over the course of two millenia, what non secularism tried to to do to gays just recently. Secularism doesn't look so bad in comparison.
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Post by stevec on Nov 19, 2015 11:57:20 GMT -6
Ken,
My question is - why would you accept the Bible affirming testimonies of our earliest politicians when their actions conflict with their testimonies? Have you ever heard the phrase - "actions speak louder than words"?
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Post by ken on Nov 19, 2015 16:17:05 GMT -6
Ken, My question is - why would you accept the Bible affirming testimonies of our earliest politicians when their actions conflict with their testimonies? Have you ever heard the phrase - "actions speak louder than words"? First, the Constitution was made by more than just one person. So not all may have agreed with what was written since there was a multitude of pastors involved in the signing thereof--it took a civil war to settle the difference of viewpoints for those called slaves. "All men are created equal" means just that. Second, we are dealing with people, it isn't the first time that people said what was right but did something totally different. President Obama comes to mind when he said that he came to stop racism and has done everything he can to accentuate it. Third, individually actions to speak louder than words, but words have eternal impact and go beyond the life span of a person. The letter of the Constitution goes further than the individual nuances. Maybe you aren't a complete atheist thanks to your wife? radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/fort-bragg-to-host-anti-religion-event.html I guess you can view it that way. My personal viewpoint is the hard-wire that God put in us. It takes time and decisions to harden the heart. Stalin, Mao and Castro made it to the end of atheistic morality. Obviously, like muslims today, one can still harden the heart and murder innocent people--but it certainly wasn't what Jesus prescribed. Think of it, if morality has no standard, who is to say that robbing isn't OK? or raping or killing to one's heart content? Only if you ignore Stalin, Mao and Castro who killed more than any religion over the centuries.
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Post by stevec on Nov 19, 2015 19:26:29 GMT -6
What's funny, Ken, is that you would probably be advocating for non sectarian governments in the Middle East in order to protect Christians in those countries, yet you demand sectarianism here in the US. Am I right?
I'll respond to your posts tomorrow.
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