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Post by ken on May 12, 2014 12:17:18 GMT -6
Just think about it, Steve. Have you ever looked at a picture of a six pound baby after a saline abortion? Don't you think that would be quite traumatic if you were part of it? Don't you think that the whole process is psychologically difficult for doctors? Can you really compare that to a pastor who finally ran out of juice to helping people and not destroying life? I have thought about it, and no, I have not seen a 6 lb baby after a saline abortion. No, I could not see myself being associated with the abortion industry for the reasons you mentioned. I have witnessed the good that abortion doctors have provided to their clients. On the other hand, I could not sleep at night if I were in your profession. That thought sickens me also, though I have witnessed the good that some pastors have provided believers. My tablet is almost out of power, so I'll explain in more detail in a later post. I still don't see the equality between pastors who leave because of the pressure of trying to help people and burning the candlestick on both ends and doctors who have to destroy life, dismember 2nd and 3rd trimester babies, and have someone else put the pieces back together again. It just two different balls of wax.
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Post by Flitzerbiest on May 12, 2014 12:26:25 GMT -6
Becoming a person of faith doesn't cause them to become liars. When one joins a group and spends a lot of time in it, one picks up and parrots the memes of that group, whether consciously or subconsciously. This phenomena is not limited to Evangelical churches, to religious groups or even to the human species. As a pastor, you will certainly have heard baptism testimonies from adolescents that sound a hell of a lot like the baptism testimonies of mature adults (e.g. "when I was a child...", "long have I struggled with sin", etc.). Do these kids actually have experience with these memes in real life? Well, they certainly think they do. No, they aren't lying...they are echoing the local folklore.
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Post by showmedot on May 12, 2014 19:11:13 GMT -6
And if we agree that this guy is now entirely believable, then we ought to have believed Bill Clinton when he insisted he didn't have sex with Monica Lewinsky.
Makes perfect sense.
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Post by stevec on May 12, 2014 20:33:28 GMT -6
So you want me to believe that a liar, who admits to lying in the past, now holds all the truth cards? You'll have as much luck in convincing me of that as you would in convincing me to investing my money with Bernie Madoff, or believing a scientist who has been associated with fraud. I'll address your second point in my next post. I would say, since there is supportive evidence to what he said, that he holds the truth cards in this case. (Did I really use the word "all"? Or was that your doing!) Certainly by you just saying "I don't trust him" doesn't have much value. What position that he mentioned was not true? What counter position are you proposing that substantiates your position? Do I just "trust" you by your statement that he is a liar? Doesn't that make the whole of the abortion industry a lie since he was one of the authors? I meant all the truth cards relating to abortion. Liars don't hold truth cards, for obvious reasons, but that hasn't stopped you from being duped before. Besides, SCOTUS decided the abortion issue long ago. Do you know what role, if any, Nathanson had in that decision?
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Post by stevec on May 12, 2014 20:56:40 GMT -6
I have thought about it, and no, I have not seen a 6 lb baby after a saline abortion. No, I could not see myself being associated with the abortion industry for the reasons you mentioned. I have witnessed the good that abortion doctors have provided to their clients. On the other hand, I could not sleep at night if I were in your profession. That thought sickens me also, though I have witnessed the good that some pastors have provided believers. My tablet is almost out of power, so I'll explain in more detail in a later post. I still don't see the equality between pastors who leave because of the pressure of trying to help people and burning the candlestick on both ends and doctors who have to destroy life, dismember 2nd and 3rd trimester babies, and have someone else put the pieces back together again. It just two different balls of wax. I'm getting all misty eyed thinking about all those abortion doctors who succumb to the pressures of helping people............ and long hours. Pastors and abortion doctors have a lot in common.
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Post by Flitzerbiest on May 12, 2014 22:23:46 GMT -6
I never got why pastors think they are burning the candle at both ends. The only one I ever knew who looked tired in the least eventually admitted it was because he was staying up all night whacking off to internet porn. Technically that's more polishing the candle than burning it, but having been through countless months of 36 on, 12 off during my training, I really have very little sympathy for the overwork of dudes who call all the shots in their organizations and are widely perceived, whether theologically correct or not, of having some special mandate from God backing whatever they decide to do, or not.
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Post by stevec on May 13, 2014 13:25:25 GMT -6
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Post by Flitzerbiest on May 13, 2014 17:04:53 GMT -6
Interesting. If there is to be any political compromise (I'm not convinced that there is), it would probably look something like this: www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2014/05/13/Graham-pushes-20-week-abortion-ban/2481400005207/I think the problem is going to be that this proposal comes on the heels of a decade of attempts to erode reproductive rights incrementally, and that the sponsor is personally on record as seeking an end to abortion. Is there no better advocate for such a position than Lindsay Graham?
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Post by stevec on May 13, 2014 23:32:54 GMT -6
I also don't believe a compromise can be reached. There are no sponsors on either side of this issue that have the ability to end the debate. No doubt pro-life advocates appreciate the long term strategy of eroding reproductive rights, but what they can't foresee is technological and medical advancements that might make it easier to abort. The pain issue is a double edge sword, imho. What would happen if someone discovered a method that assured painless abortions? I'm sure prolife advocates would adapt also, so we will probably always have that line in the sand at about 20-24 weeks.
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Post by Flitzerbiest on May 15, 2014 9:23:09 GMT -6
Here is where, I think reasonable people can agree:
1. There is moral consequence to ending the life of or causing pain to a conscious living entity. 2. The onset of fetal consciousness is fairly well understood, and almost certainly knowable with greater precision as medicine advances. 3. "Moral relativism" is universally practiced and good. Laws and rules are necessary in some cases, but are no substitute for thought. 4. Religions are free to assert greater restriction than secular moral reasoning would support for their consenting adherents.
I personally wouldn't outlaw abortion. However, I would support truly informed consent including the moral (NOT religious) implications of termination after potential gestational age of consciousness. It really ought to be, IMO, harder to get an abortion at 30 weeks than at 8. Impossible? No. Again, that would be flow charting moral thinking in an untenable way. Instead, we ought to honest and thorough in laying out the issues laying out what we know, what we don't and what moral considerations exist. I guarantee that this would reduce abortion without codifying articles of faith (to which people are welcome for themselves). Unfortunately, there are far too many people asserting that we know things that we don't.
Further, there is a ton of hypocrisy here, especially regarding moral relativism. I submit that anyone who asserts that he does not practice it is far too morally unaware to offer anything helpful to the discussion.
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Post by ken on Oct 15, 2015 16:25:48 GMT -6
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Post by stevec on Oct 22, 2015 8:40:29 GMT -6
As do those in the god business. Just one scandal after another, I've stopped keeping score, Ken.
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Post by ken on Oct 26, 2015 19:04:50 GMT -6
As do those in the god business. Just one scandal after another, I've stopped keeping score, Ken. I think there are some basic differences such as the score is 45 MILLION babies to a score in comparison; usually we don't go around denying that it is wrong; Christians are the most helpful people in the US.
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Post by stevec on Oct 26, 2015 19:12:49 GMT -6
As do those in the god business. Just one scandal after another, I've stopped keeping score, Ken. I think there are some basic differences such as the score is 45 MILLION babies to a score in comparison; usually we don't go around denying that it is wrong; Christians are the most helpful people in the US. I'm not saying that Christians aren't most helpful, I'm saying that people in dirty positions need psychological help, religious leaders included.
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Post by ken on Oct 30, 2015 13:52:18 GMT -6
I think there are some basic differences such as the score is 45 MILLION babies to a score in comparison; usually we don't go around denying that it is wrong; Christians are the most helpful people in the US. I'm not saying that Christians aren't most helpful, I'm saying that people in dirty positions need psychological help, religious leaders included. I would wholeheartedly agree with that position. If a religious leader is dirty, he needs help. Just saw the latest video on PP in reference to partial birth abortions www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tgez97aG74Just can't help feel the pain of our current callousness to life.
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