|
|
Post by Flitzerbiest on May 9, 2014 20:11:33 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by woodrowli on May 10, 2014 1:41:57 GMT -6
Under the Shah Iran was very Western. Tehran used to resemble New York more than any Mideastern Nation. When we helped depose the Shah and opened the door for the Ayatollahs things changed. Being Aryans the Persians identify more with Germans than with Mideasterners they tend to have a dislike of anything they consider to be Arab. |
|
|
|
Post by Flitzerbiest on May 10, 2014 7:48:04 GMT -6
Yeah, we've fucked up in the Middle East in more ways than can easily be counted. The things we'll do for moral principle cheap oil.
I don't know how widespread this movement is, but women's rights/freedom/education/empowerment is arguably more important to the peace and prosperity of the globe than any other single factor. Getting rid of the silken shackles is merely symbolic, but still refreshing.
|
|
|
|
Post by woodrowli on May 11, 2014 10:44:40 GMT -6
Yeah, we've fucked up in the Middle East in more ways than can easily be counted. The things we'll do for moral principle cheap oil. I don't know how widespread this movement is, but women's rights/freedom/education/empowerment is arguably more important to the peace and prosperity of the globe than any other single factor. Getting rid of the silken shackles is merely symbolic, but still refreshing. Oil has pretty well messed up the mideast as it has given us an invested interest in the region. Saudi, Afghanistan. Iran and Iraq being the most notable. The al-Saud family never would have been able to take over Hejaz and Nejd without playing with the big boys and being instrumental in forming Aramco which was how they managed to form their own country in 1931 (Saudi Arabia) and bring in wahabbi'ism. The al-Saud family had been exiled from Najd and Hejaz and Wahabbi'ism declared heretical, a danger and outlawed. But thanks to our help we now have the "Kingdom of Saudi Arabia" and Wahabbi'ism being called Sharia. |
|
|
|
Post by Flitzerbiest on May 18, 2014 12:22:40 GMT -6
I understand that women can and do "choose" to wear the symbols of their submission, but after how much relentless indoctrination, social pressure and threat?
|
|
|
|
Post by woodrowli on May 19, 2014 1:50:18 GMT -6
I understand that women can and do "choose" to wear the symbols of their submission, but after how much relentless indoctrination, social pressure and threat? A lot less than what people think. I have seen American Non-Muslims living in the American Sections of Saudi insist on wearing full cover (Burkhas) after their first sandstorm. In both the Arabian Desert and the Sahara I used to cover fully and I was not Muslim at the time. In the more temperate regions Muslim women normally do not cover fully, just the bare minimum if they do choose to cover. The exception will be new immigrants or recent converts. In the US if you see a Muslim woman in a Burqa she is either recently from Saudi or a new convert that thinks she has to wear it. |
|
|
|
Post by Flitzerbiest on May 19, 2014 11:30:30 GMT -6
I understand that women can and do "choose" to wear the symbols of their submission, but after how much relentless indoctrination, social pressure and threat? A lot less than what people think. I have seen American Non-Muslims living in the American Sections of Saudi insist on wearing full cover (Burkhas) after their first sandstorm. In both the Arabian Desert and the Sahara I used to cover fully and I was not Muslim at the time. In the more temperate regions Muslim women normally do not cover fully, just the bare minimum if they do choose to cover. The exception will be new immigrants or recent converts. In the US if you see a Muslim woman in a Burqa she is either recently from Saudi or a new convert that thinks she has to wear it. But head scarves on Muslim women worldwide are ubiquitous. |
|
|
|
Post by woodrowli on May 19, 2014 18:05:36 GMT -6
A lot less than what people think. I have seen American Non-Muslims living in the American Sections of Saudi insist on wearing full cover (Burkhas) after their first sandstorm. In both the Arabian Desert and the Sahara I used to cover fully and I was not Muslim at the time. In the more temperate regions Muslim women normally do not cover fully, just the bare minimum if they do choose to cover. The exception will be new immigrants or recent converts. In the US if you see a Muslim woman in a Burqa she is either recently from Saudi or a new convert that thinks she has to wear it. But head scarves on Muslim women worldwide are ubiquitous. True Possibly some dislike them but every Muslim woman I know would break your arm if you tried to take it off of her. Every one I know prefers wearing it over having to be certain her hair is in place before going out. |
|
|
|
Post by Flitzerbiest on May 20, 2014 2:24:34 GMT -6
Maybe you should re-read the original post a bit more carefully.
|
|
|
|
Post by woodrowli on May 20, 2014 20:45:24 GMT -6
Maybe you should re-read the original post a bit more carefully. That is Iran. There are considerable differences between Shi'te and Sunni. In many ways we often don't even look like the same religion. Even among us Sunni there is differences withing the 4 Madhabs. While we may follow which ever madhab we are most comfortable with typically we choose the one closest to the traditions of the region we live in. The Hanafi hadhab is quite democratic and flexible, I find it best suited for life in the USA. Under the Hanafi a man is forbidden to tell a woman to wear a hijab or to tell her not to wear it. It has to be the woman's personal choice. |
|
|
|
Post by Flitzerbiest on May 21, 2014 11:00:33 GMT -6
Maybe you should re-read the original post a bit more carefully. That is Iran. There are considerable differences between Shi'te and Sunni. In many ways we often don't even look like the same religion. Even among us Sunni there is differences withing the 4 Madhabs. While we may follow which ever madhab we are most comfortable with typically we choose the one closest to the traditions of the region we live in. The Hanafi hadhab is quite democratic and flexible, I find it best suited for life in the USA. Under the Hanafi a man is forbidden to tell a woman to wear a hijab or to tell her not to wear it. It has to be the woman's personal choice. And you really, honestly believe that there is no pressure whatsoever on the woman? I guess we really don't have much else to say to each other on the subject. |
|
|
|
Post by woodrowli on May 21, 2014 21:48:23 GMT -6
That is Iran. There are considerable differences between Shi'te and Sunni. In many ways we often don't even look like the same religion. Even among us Sunni there is differences withing the 4 Madhabs. While we may follow which ever madhab we are most comfortable with typically we choose the one closest to the traditions of the region we live in. The Hanafi hadhab is quite democratic and flexible, I find it best suited for life in the USA. Under the Hanafi a man is forbidden to tell a woman to wear a hijab or to tell her not to wear it. It has to be the woman's personal choice. And you really, honestly believe that there is no pressure whatsoever on the woman? I guess we really don't have much else to say to each other on the subject. For some there is pressure. But every Muslim woman I have ever met, I have not seen any pressure. Many American Muslim women are converts that came into Islam of their own choice and see it as what they choose to do. In ever Islamic Nation I have been in (Which is everyone in the Mideast and North Africa) I have seen woman dressed in varying degrees of covering. Yes there are woman who are forced to cover because of family and social pressure. But, that is not found world wide. |
|
