The rights of women in Islam

[woodrowli]

While I will be the first to admit this is not waht is always done. Like all religions there are those who just won't follow the rules, ther are even a few Nations that forbid to read the qur'an out of fear they might discover their rights/

I am going to just say what is supposed to be not what some nations actually do. I'll address them later. To begin with there are 2 main things Sunni Muslims are supposed to follow, the Qur'an and the Sunnah. In this first post I'm just listing a few things from the Qur'an pointing out men and women are supposed to be equal.

"And for women are rights over men similar to those of men over women." [ Quran 2:228]

"For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward." [Quran 33:35]

"Enter into Paradise, you and your wives, with delight." [Quran 43:70]

"Who so does that which is right, and believes, whether male or female, him or her will We quicken to happy life." [ Quran 16:97]

"O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good." [ Quran 4:19]

"O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from this pair scattered (like seeds) countless men and women. Reverence Allah, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and reverence the wombs (that bore you); for Allah ever watches over you." [ Quran 4:1]

"They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them." [ Quran 2:187]

"And among His signs is this, that He has created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them; and He has put love and mercy between you. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect." [ Quran 30:21]

[Flitzerbiest]

W6oodrow,

It's been a few years since I read a (translation of the) Qu'ran. My recollection is that it spent a lot more in enumerating the rights of women. I think this is what we would like to see and to some extent expect from a work 600 (well, 400-500 actually) years younger than the NT. Still, there is plenty of fodder for those who would prefer to see women as chattel.

And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women...

They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you.

They ask thee for a pronouncement. Say: Allah hath pronounced for you concerning distant kindred. If a man die childless and he have a sister, hers is half the heritage, and he would have inherited from her had she died childless. And if there be two sisters, then theirs are two-thirds of the heritage, and if they be brethren, men and women, unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females.

And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them.

And if ye wish to exchange one wife for another and ye have given unto one of them a sum of money (however great), take nothing from it.

And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving. (parenthetically, I have to agree with ol' Allah on this one. Wash you hands after you jerk off in the wardrobe. Please!)

Incidentally, the acid test of a philosophy is, as you allude, what arises from it. I'd say women do as poorly under Shia Islam as under any oppressive yolk, and less well under Sunni Islam than they do in secular societies. Why do you suppose that is?

[woodrowli]

Apr 3, 2014 21:05:41 GMT -6 Flitzerbiest said:

W6oodrow,

It's been a few years since I read a (translation of the) Qu'ran. My recollection is that it spent a lot more in enumerating the rights of women. I think this is what we would like to see and to some extent expect from a work 600 (well, 400-500 actually) years younger than the NT. Still, there is plenty of fodder for those who would prefer to see women as chattel.

And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women...

They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you.

They ask thee for a pronouncement. Say: Allah hath pronounced for you concerning distant kindred. If a man die childless and he have a sister, hers is half the heritage, and he would have inherited from her had she died childless. And if there be two sisters, then theirs are two-thirds of the heritage, and if they be brethren, men and women, unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females.

And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them.

And if ye wish to exchange one wife for another and ye have given unto one of them a sum of money (however great), take nothing from it.

And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving. (parenthetically, I have to agree with ol' Allah on this one. Wash you hands after you jerk off in the wardrobe. Please!)

Incidentally, the acid test of a philosophy is, as you allude, what arises from it. I'd say women do as poorly under Shia Islam as under any oppressive yolk, and less well under Sunni Islam than they do in secular societies. Why do you suppose that is?

Dang I had spent over an hour replying to this and had it "evaporate" before I hit create post/ Oh well take 2


I'm only addressing this last paragraph at the moment.

Incidentally, the acid test of a philosophy is, as you allude, what arises from it. I'd say women do as poorly under Shia Islam as under any oppressive yolk, and less well under Sunni Islam than they do in secular societies. Why do you suppose that is?

The differences have little to do with religion but more with National custom. The typical view many see of Muslim woman are the Arab women (especially those in Saudi Arabia) and Pakistani Women.  .  However, Pakistan which alone has nearly 1/4 of the World's Muslims has a very poor record of rights for women. It is getting worse as the women who do get an education usually leave Pakistan resulting in a "Brain Drain"  of Educated woman in Pakistan. While the Percentage of Pakistan woman who get an education is low, the majority that do get  a doctorate.

The Arab nations are a very small percentage of Muslims.   World wide there are an estimated 370 Million Arabs Not all of them are Muslim Most Arabs living in Western Nations are Christians. Any how even using the 370 million that would be 20% of the world's Muslims at Most.  The majority of Arab Sunni live on the Arabian Penninsula. (Iraq while it was majority Sunni before we helped them is now Majority Shi'a)

Getting back to the issue of women. Outside the Arab nations Sunni women are generally well educated and quite active as political forces. However, many of the well educated ones move to Western nations. where salaries are higher. the Arab Muslims are the only ones that forbid women to drive and force them to wear a burqa.  In fact covering the face is a paradox as when on Hajj women are forbidden to cover their faces. there is nothing in the Qur'an or in shariah law that requires a woman to cover her face. some non-Arab Muslims are under the opinion it is forbidden to do so at any time.

Many perhaps most Muslim woman world wide are quite independent and head strong. they are quite demanding about getting their rights and have been very successful in doing so. But that is mostly outside the Arab Nations.

The common thread I see in Pakistan and the Arab nations is both are strongly influenced by whabbi'ism. which in my opinion is like a cancer that must be stopped.

Historically woman have been very active in Islam as Educators, political and social leaders along with being formers of the legal systems.

Just for curiosity or interest here are some very notable Muslim women. Just posting a brief intro and a Link to the whole article

Since 1988, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Mali, Pakistan, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan, Senegal and Turkey have been led, at some point, by a Muslim woman president or prime minister. Juxtapose this to Hillary Clinton, who ran for President of the U.S. in 2008 and noted in her concession speech, "I am a woman and, like millions of women, I know there are still barriers and biases out there, often unconscious, and I want to build an America that respects and embraces the potential of every last one of us."

In honor of Women's History Month, I present 10 Muslim women, from the seventh century until today, that every Muslim (and everyone else) should know about. Some of these women have been jailed, ridiculed and harangued for their activism; yet, their strength and faith always persevered. The following 10 extraordinary Muslim women have been shattering cement, glass and orbital ceilings with panache.

LINK

As a way of recognizing the many contributions these women are making, I wanted to highlight a handful of these women in a two-part series -- this first blog devoted to North American Muslim women, and a second upcoming blog celebrating Muslim women from other parts of the world.

In this snapshot of our exhibition of North American Muslim women, you'll find a diverse group of women who've been able to move beyond the belittling stereotypes about Muslim women and are, instead, using their personal relationship to their faith in a positive way to actually shift the national conversation about Islam. In the process, they are transforming the world in fresh and exhilarating ways.

LINK

History's famous Muslim women scholars, philanthropists, and rulers

Muslim women in later times from the 8th century onward contributed in every field of what later developed an Islamic civilization in the classical age. Ashifa bint Abdullah for example was the first Muslim woman to be appointed by Caliph Umar ibn AlKhattab as a market inspector and manager. Amra bint Abdurrahman was one of the greatest scholars among the second generation of early Muslims. She was a jurist, a mufti (gives legal opinions,) and a hadith (Prophet’s sayings tradition) scholar in the time of Ummayyad Caliph Umar ibn Abdul Aziz, who encouraged Muslims to learn with her. Aisha bint Sa’d ibn Abi Waqqass was a jurist and scholar who taught the famous Muslim man jurist Imam Malik, the founder of the Maliki juristic school. Sayyida Nafisa, the Prophet’s great granddaughter, daughter of Al-Hassan ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib, was a teacher of Islamic jurisprudence whose students traveled from faraway places to learn with her. One of her students was Imam Shafi’i, another great founder of the Shafi’i school of law. She actually financially supported him as well. Another Muslim woman scholar who taught famous Muslim men scholars was Aisha bint Muhammad ibn Abdel Hadi in Damascus; she possessed the shortest chain of narration back to the prophet of any other scholar alive in her time. She taught Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani, the greatest latter-day Hadith scholars. Umm Darda was a female scholar who taught at the great Ummayyad mosque in Damascus as well as in Jerusalem; one of her students was Caliph Abdul Malik ibn Marwan himself. A 12th century woman, Shuhadah bint Ahmad al-Ibrii studied in Baghdad with the latest scholars and became herself a great scholar of hadith and jurist.

LINK

[woodrowli]

Apr 3, 2014 22:05:41 GMT -5 Flitzerbiest said:
W6oodrow,

It's been a few years since I read a (translation of the) Qu'ran. My recollection is that it spent a lot more in enumerating the rights of women. I think this is what we would like to see and to some extent expect from a work 600 (well, 400-500 actually) years younger than the NT. Still, there is plenty of fodder for those who would prefer to see women as chattel.

I agree there are quite a bit that can be misused either deliberately or through ignorance. One reason why for the practice of Islam the Qur'an can not be used as a stand alone instruction manual. One needs to also understand at least one of the following.


The teachings of a Madhab. (A school of Islamic Jurisprudence) While the Qur'an gives the Whys madhabs give the hows

The Fiqh-ul-Sunnah which is a guide on how the companions of Muhammad(saws practiced Islam

The Ahadith which are collections of things that Muhammad said or did. They are not commands but give an understanding of how Muhammad(saws) perceived Islam

And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women...
At first glance this looks like a value statement indicating the word of a woman is half that of a man. It is true that some scholars have understood it that way and offered explanations as to why.

But as practiced it is designed to keep woman from being misused, such as a man being accused of a crime coercing his wife into lying and testifying in his defense. It also reduces the risk of a man bullying a woman into agreeing to putting things she does not agree upon into the Nikkah (The Marriage contract) along with other things. Over all if used properly it makes it difficult for a man to bully a woman into doing something against her will

hey question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you.

Up until recent times hygine around the world was not very effective. Under such conditions some things were not wise to do.

They ask thee for a pronouncement. Say: Allah hath pronounced for you concerning distant kindred. If a man die childless and he have a sister, hers is half the heritage, and he would have inherited from her had she died childless. And if there be two sisters, then theirs are two-thirds of the heritage, and if they be brethren, men and women, unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females.

Here it says a woman only gets half the inheritance of a man. Which is true. but several things need to be understood. Any wealth a woman has is hers alone. A woman is not obligated to pay for her needs or household expenses that burdan falls upon the men in the family. A woman needs to use her money only for what she desires for her self. She has no responsibility to pay for any necessities. Also a woman can put in the Nikkah that her dower is to be everything the Husband owns at the time of his death or if they divorce. That removes it from inheritance if the husband dies.

And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them.

the degree above relates to responsibility. Both are to share every thing equally, but the husband is responsible to pay for it.

And if ye wish to exchange one wife for another and ye have given unto one of them a sum of money (however great), take nothing from it.

Prevents a man from taking back the house etc and dower if he divorces his wife.

And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving. (parenthetically, I have to agree with ol' Allah on this one. Wash you hands after you jerk off in the wardrobe. Please!)

this relates to the obligatory prayer times. Before we say the obligatory prayers we have to do Wudu (Catholic only have to dip two finger tips into a bowl of water) if we have done darn near anything.For us it is dang near a bath. If water is not available we can simulate wudu by using dry clean sand.

Incidentally, the acid test of a philosophy is, as you allude, what arises from it. I'd say women do as poorly under Shia Islam as under any oppressive yolk, and less well under Sunni Islam than they do in secular societies. Why do you suppose that is?

I answered this in the post above

[Flitzerbiest]

Woodrow,

The vast majority of Muslims are decent folk (as are the vast majority of Christians, atheists and Scientologists). I'm sorry that you don't get any public recognition of this.

When I get time, I'd like to do a little re-reading in the Qu'ran on the issue. I hope you don't mind me playing devil's advocate (he pays me well).

biest

[woodrowli]

Apr 4, 2014 9:01:00 GMT -6 Flitzerbiest said:

Woodrow,

The vast majority of Muslims are decent folk (as are the vast majority of Christians, atheists and Scientologists). I'm sorry that you don't get any public recognition of this.

When I get time, I'd like to do a little re-reading in the Qu'ran on the issue. I hope you don't mind me playing devil's advocate (he pays me well).

biest

Thank You,

Questions are always welcome. One of my obligations as a Muslim is to question all things. We are not to be blind followers and our beliefs are our own responsibility. To always be questioning I deeply value sincere questions from others.

Like I said the Qur'an is not a set of rules "per se" It is the Whys. To find the hows we need to look further. Islam is a path of life long learning.

I'll try to find an online link to the Fiqh-ul-Sunnah (English Version) it is the  basic rule book that lays out what things we should do as Sunni Muslims.  Quite lengthy piece of work, that we use sort of like a cook book, when we are uncertain about what we are supposed to do we look in the index and see if we can find something to cover what we are looking for.  that will give the how and references to the whys.  But like all things we are to question that also.

Sadly we do have people that do not question and fall prey to becoming followers.  Also for newbies it is helpful to initially follow the guidance of one of the 4 established Madhabs. And most importantly Understand it is our personal responsibility to question all things especially what we believe.

[woodrowli]

Apr 4, 2014 12:00:45 GMT -6 woodrowli said:

I'll try to find an online link to the Fiqh-ul-Sunnah (English Version) it is the  basic rule book that lays out what things we should do as Sunni Muslims.  Quite lengthy piece of work, that we use sort of like a cook book, when we are uncertain about what we are supposed to do we look in the index and see if we can find something to cover what we are looking for.  that will give the how and references to the whys.  But like all things we are to question that also.

That was easier than I thought it would be. I found a site that has the full Fiqh-ul-sunnah. It is complete but the site is a bit cluttered and takes a bit of trial and error to navigate..

The link I'm posting will take you directly to the fiqh, you will notice it is divided in to about 6 categories each with it's own index of topics. A little looking around should give you a working understanding of what I was talking about. Basically it is a rough guide of how to act like a Sunni

Here is the

link

[Flitzerbiest]

Apr 4, 2014 12:00:45 GMT -6 woodrowli said:

We are not to be blind followers and our beliefs are our own responsibility.

Ah, but then we [sic] run out of gas and settle into a comfortable groove.

[woodrowli]

Apr 4, 2014 21:57:39 GMT -6 Flitzerbiest said:

Apr 4, 2014 12:00:45 GMT -6 woodrowli said:

We are not to be blind followers and our beliefs are our own responsibility.

Ah, but then we [sic] run out of gas and settle into a comfortable groove.

Sadly that happens more often than I even want to think about. When a person reaches the point of accepting the status quo they become lazy and decide to let "leaders" think for them

[stevec]

I missed this entire thread because I click on individual threads rather than the forum category.

Will get back to you on this.

[Flitzerbiest]

Woodrow,

Did you see this question:

Incidentally, the acid test of a philosophy is, as you allude, what arises from it. I'd say women do as poorly under Shia Islam as under any oppressive yolk, and less well under Sunni Islam than they do in secular societies. Why do you suppose that is?

biest

[woodrowli]

Apr 17, 2014 13:40:12 GMT -6 Flitzerbiest said:

Woodrow,

Did you see this question:

Incidentally, the acid test of a philosophy is, as you allude, what arises from it. I'd say women do as poorly under Shia Islam as under any oppressive yolk, and less well under Sunni Islam than they do in secular societies. Why do you suppose that is?

biest

Odd I was positive I had replied to it. I'll go back and see where I put my reply.

Found it

Check here:

link

[Flitzerbiest]

Apr 17, 2014 17:42:11 GMT -6 woodrowli said:

Odd I was positive I had replied to it. I'll go back and see where I put my reply.

Look under the cat.

[woodrowli]

Apr 17, 2014 19:14:21 GMT -6 Flitzerbiest said:

Apr 17, 2014 17:42:11 GMT -6 woodrowli said:

Odd I was positive I had replied to it. I'll go back and see where I put my reply.

Look under the cat.

Have you ever tried looking under a sleeping cat?  I value my arm.