|
Post by stevec on Nov 18, 2015 0:32:55 GMT -6
Ken,
No one is telling Christians what to believe. What you see happening is society evolving to a point where Christianity can no longer bully nonconformists(see report from 33rd Congress). America is stopping evangelicals from taking over public property and turning it into Christian propaganda venues, that's all. You have hundreds of millions private venues(homes and churches) from which you are legally allowed to proselytize from.Your cries of persecution are a joke. When was the last time your Sunday sermons were interupted by goose stepping liberal police? Stop offering political speeches and memoirs as evidence for the Bible's influence in the Revolution and the framing of our Constitution. Actions speak louder than words. You've not reconciled the slavery issue in the least, so I don't expect you to reconcile another glaring problem for the Bible's influence. Why were women treated as second class citizens right up to 1920 which was when they were finally granted the right to vote. Were the men of the Continental Congress(now we're talking 100%) feeling the Bible's influence when they were deciding womens' roles in our society?
It's all about $$$$$ and the power it wields.
|
|
|
Post by ken on Nov 19, 2015 7:13:25 GMT -6
WOW!!! 1854 Congress... "What is an "establishment of religion"? It must have a creed defining what a man must believe; it must have rites and ordinances which believers must observe; it must have ministers of defined qualifications to teach the doctrines and administer the rites; it must have test for the submissive and penalties for the nonconformist. There never was an established religion without ll these" - Reports of Committees of the House of Representatives Made During the First Session of the Thirty-Third Congress (Washington: A. O. P. Nicholson, 1854) p. 1 It would appear that today is the beginning of secular religion defining what a man must believe. It has ordinances which must be observed and the secular judges administer the rites and penalties for the nonconformist and the secular teachers are those who teach the doctrines. Today, it is no longer the establishment of a national church but now has been relegated to: - An individual student from saying a prayer at a football game, graduation, or any other school event
- An individual student from writing a research paper on a religious tope, drawing religious artwork in an art class, or carrying his personal Bible on school grounds.
- a choir from singing a religious song as part of a school concert
a school from placing a Bible in a classroom library
cadets at military academies from engaging in voluntary prayers over their meals
literally hundreds of similar individual or group activities
Separation of Church and State was never meant to remove the vestiges of faith but to promote the free exercise thereof... something that now is being taken away. Hi Ken: My kids are few years out of high school, but I know from first hand experience that there was no problem exploring the cultural aspects of religion in public school - writing a history paper on religious topics, creating religious art or singing sacred music in the choir. One of my kids is singing in the top choir at the University of Colorado in uber-PC Boulder and they've had concerts entirely consisting of sacred music. (Most/almost all of the greatest choral pieces of history are religious of course). I don't deny that some administrators overreact now and then, and of course overreactions gets all the press. In my own experience, the lefty Montessori charter school our kids went to for grade school (and we liked a lot) had actual Wiccans visit at Halloween, yet still denied the kids the opportunity to say "Merry Christmas." We just laughed it off as silly but innocuous political correctness. Minor intersections of the cultural aspects of faith and school (religious art and music, so forth), are properly permitted as not being actual establishment events. It is a shame when politically rabid activists file lawsuits over minor religious entanglements, and schools reflexively over-react, but it has not entirely excised the cultural aspects of religion from our schools, not by a long shot. Jim Hello Jim, here's my desire that you and your family are doing well. I think that there are pockets that don't have that problem but those that I mentioned: student prayer at football game - Jager v. Douglas County School District 11th Circuit court 1989 graduation - Graham v. Central Community School District of Decatur County and others school event - Chandler v. James 1997 (permanent injunction) research paper - Brittney Kay Settle v Dickson County School Board 1995 drawing - Peck v Baldwinsville Cent. School District 2005 Bible at school grounds - Harvey Rice, "Lawsuit Claims scStudents Not allowed to Charry bibles," Houston Chronicle choir singing - Stratechuk v. South Orange Maplewood School District 2004 and others school having a Bible in a classroom library - Roberts v. Madigan 1989 cadets - Attorney: Virginia Military Prayer Serves Secular Purpose" hundreds of others - Alliance for Defense Fund (one of various) - funds HUNDREDS of cases on this issue. Had people not stood up and said no, even your area would feel the effects. In Orange County, California, a pastor was arrested for quietly playing Christian music at his picnic table in a public park. Two Gideons were arrested in Florida for standing on a sidewalk ad giving Bibles to those who wanted them. Four Christian evangelists at a public festival near Detroit were arrested for answering questions that had been asked about their own Christian faith.
|
|
|
Post by stevec on Nov 19, 2015 12:13:24 GMT -6
Ken, Here you go, a fundamentalist's perception of the separation of church and state. This is why secular proponents are so doubtful of evangelicals' ultimate goals. The "building up tolerance" claim is giggle worthy. www.christianheadlines.com/blog/john-kasich-proposes-creation-of-new-agency-to-promote-judeo-christian-values.htmlJOHN KASICH PROPOSES CREATION OF NEW AGENCY TO PROMOTE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN VALUE Republican presidential candidate John Kasich has called for the formation of a new government agency which would promote Judeo-Christian values in an effort to defeat radical Islam. Christian Today reports that, in an interview with NBC on Tuesday, Kasich said, “We need to beam messages around the world about what it means to have a Western ethic, to be a part of a Christian-Judeo society." "It means freedom, it means opportunity, it means respect for women, it means so many things,” he elaborated. Kasich compared the idea of the new agency to “what we used to do when we beamed messages to the former Soviet Union.” He said this new agency would promote Judeo-Christian values to China, Russia, and the Middle East. When questioned about the implications this agency would have on Americans who do not ascribe to Christian faith, Kasich responded that this agency would also benefit them because supporting Judeo-Christian values “involves building up tolerance.” Kasich also stated that, even though many of his Republican rivals focus on reducing government agencies and spending, not all government agencies and programs are equal. Kasich also gave his views on the Syrian refugee crisis, stating, "I don't think any refugees should be coming now until we can determine who they are and that our country will be safe."
|
|
|
Post by ken on Nov 19, 2015 12:17:24 GMT -6
Ken, Here you go, a fundamentalist's perception of the separation of church and state. This is why secular proponents are so doubtful of evangelicals' ultimate goals. The "building up tolerance" claim is giggle worthy. www.christianheadlines.com/blog/john-kasich-proposes-creation-of-new-agency-to-promote-judeo-christian-values.htmlJOHN KASICH PROPOSES CREATION OF NEW AGENCY TO PROMOTE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN VALUE Republican presidential candidate John Kasich has called for the formation of a new government agency which would promote Judeo-Christian values in an effort to defeat radical Islam. Christian Today reports that, in an interview with NBC on Tuesday, Kasich said, “We need to beam messages around the world about what it means to have a Western ethic, to be a part of a Christian-Judeo society." "It means freedom, it means opportunity, it means respect for women, it means so many things,” he elaborated. Kasich compared the idea of the new agency to “what we used to do when we beamed messages to the former Soviet Union.” He said this new agency would promote Judeo-Christian values to China, Russia, and the Middle East. When questioned about the implications this agency would have on Americans who do not ascribe to Christian faith, Kasich responded that this agency would also benefit them because supporting Judeo-Christian values “involves building up tolerance.” Kasich also stated that, even though many of his Republican rivals focus on reducing government agencies and spending, not all government agencies and programs are equal. Kasich also gave his views on the Syrian refugee crisis, stating, "I don't think any refugees should be coming now until we can determine who they are and that our country will be safe." I do hope you are kidding... please advise if you are not.
|
|
|
Post by ken on Nov 19, 2015 12:32:38 GMT -6
Ken, No one is telling Christians what to believe. What you see happening is society evolving to a point where Christianity can no longer bully nonconformists(see report from 33rd Congress). America is stopping evangelicals from taking over public property and turning it into Christian propaganda venues, that's all. You have hundreds of millions private venues(homes and churches) from which you are legally allowed to proselytize from.Your cries of persecution are a joke. When was the last time your Sunday sermons were interupted by goose stepping liberal police? Stop offering political speeches and memoirs as evidence for the Bible's influence in the Revolution and the framing of our Constitution. Actions speak louder than words. You've not reconciled the slavery issue in the least, so I don't expect you to reconcile another glaring problem for the Bible's influence. Why were women treated as second class citizens right up to 1920 which was when they were finally granted the right to vote. Were the men of the Continental Congress(now we're talking 100%) feeling the Bible's influence when they were deciding womens' roles in our society? It's all about $$$$$ and the power it wields. I will be happy to offer more facts (versus opinions) on how the Bible was the most influential document that inspired the framing of our Constitution... not the least the fact that it was inspired from the Declaration of Independence. US Supreme Court says, of the Declaration of Independence, Please note: and again... There are over 100 statements that address the Declaration by the Supreme Court. Your thoughts on these great words? As far as slavery and women's rights, it is no wonder they fell off the cliff since it is covered that "All men are created equal" in harmony that "in Christ, there is neither male nor female, slave or free, Jew or Greek". Once one submits to the Word of God, freedom ensues but one has to fight for righteousness for "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
|
|
|
Post by stevec on Nov 19, 2015 19:05:52 GMT -6
Great words, Ken, they couldn't be more inspiring. I'm not arguing that point.
Let's start from the beginning. Aside from the word "Creator", what parts of the D of E and the Constitution were drawn from the Bible?
Quote the part of the Bible that states that governments are instituted to secure life, liberty and the pursuif of happiness for all men.
|
|
|
Post by stevec on Nov 19, 2015 19:09:15 GMT -6
"As far as slavery and women's rights, it is no wonder they fell off the cliff since it is covered that "All men are created equal" in harmony that "in Christ, there is neither male nor female, slave or free, Jew or Greek". Once one submits to the Word of God, freedom ensues but one has to fight for righteousness for "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.""
What are you talking about?
|
|
|
Post by stevec on Nov 19, 2015 19:10:59 GMT -6
Ken, Here you go, a fundamentalist's perception of the separation of church and state. This is why secular proponents are so doubtful of evangelicals' ultimate goals. The "building up tolerance" claim is giggle worthy. www.christianheadlines.com/blog/john-kasich-proposes-creation-of-new-agency-to-promote-judeo-christian-values.htmlJOHN KASICH PROPOSES CREATION OF NEW AGENCY TO PROMOTE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN VALUE Republican presidential candidate John Kasich has called for the formation of a new government agency which would promote Judeo-Christian values in an effort to defeat radical Islam. Christian Today reports that, in an interview with NBC on Tuesday, Kasich said, “We need to beam messages around the world about what it means to have a Western ethic, to be a part of a Christian-Judeo society." "It means freedom, it means opportunity, it means respect for women, it means so many things,” he elaborated. Kasich compared the idea of the new agency to “what we used to do when we beamed messages to the former Soviet Union.” He said this new agency would promote Judeo-Christian values to China, Russia, and the Middle East. When questioned about the implications this agency would have on Americans who do not ascribe to Christian faith, Kasich responded that this agency would also benefit them because supporting Judeo-Christian values “involves building up tolerance.” Kasich also stated that, even though many of his Republican rivals focus on reducing government agencies and spending, not all government agencies and programs are equal. Kasich also gave his views on the Syrian refugee crisis, stating, "I don't think any refugees should be coming now until we can determine who they are and that our country will be safe." I do hope you are kidding... please advise if you are not. Why would you think I'm kidding?
|
|
|
Post by ken on Nov 21, 2015 17:47:39 GMT -6
1) It is a report 2) It doesn't mention any "fundamentalist perception" 3) I doubt if he is a fundamentalist 4) Christian values doesn't change a heart.
I thought you were kidding because I listed this as a post about atheism, you would have torn it apart. Not the expert debater that I am accustomed to.
|
|
|
Post by ken on Nov 21, 2015 18:05:02 GMT -6
One can only wonder that if today's concept of separation of Church and State existed, the following would never have been allowed...
1) White House - Marble facing of the State dining room fireplace "I pray to Heaven to Bestow the Best of Blessings on THIS HOUSE and on All that hereafter inhabit it." 2) Washington Monument - statements such as "Holiness to the Lord, Search the Scriptures, the memory of the just is blessed, In God we Trust, May Heaven to this union continue its beneficence, Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it" 3) The National Archives - Rotunda - contains the Ten Commandments with Senate and Justice to the right of them, which symbolized that our legal system has its origin in God's law 4) The Lincoln Memorial -"that this nation, under God..." and many scriptural reference 5) The Jefferson Memorial - "Almighty God hath created the mind free..."
And so many more. Certainly a different perspective than today's "Separation of Church and State".
#separation of church and state, fallacy
|
|
|
Post by stevec on Nov 22, 2015 21:26:23 GMT -6
Ken,
John Kasich is a Rep presidential candidate. He's catering to the Christian/evangelical vote.
|
|
|
Post by ken on Nov 23, 2015 7:34:28 GMT -6
Ken, John Kasich is a Rep presidential candidate. He's catering to the Christian/evangelical vote. Obviously a politician as that pitch falls flat to the ears of the Evangelical as it holds no value. Reminds me of President Obama who couldn't even quote the Bible correctly.
|
|
|
Post by ken on Nov 23, 2015 19:30:25 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by stevec on Nov 29, 2015 20:08:57 GMT -6
What founding father shed blood for freedom of religion? What was the name of that battle?
|
|
|
Post by ken on Nov 30, 2015 17:58:22 GMT -6
What founding father shed blood for freedom of religion? What was the name of that battle? It is called, "The American Revolution"... and the item is listed as follows: It would be logical to assume that if it is the first of the rights, it must have been just as important and part of "to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" which you agree was part of the reason.
|
|