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Post by howiedds on Jun 9, 2014 10:53:20 GMT -6
Dot:
That's true, but the Lubavicher sect of Chasids send missionaries far and wide, from North Dakota to Thailand. True there may only be a few families in these far flung places.
The Lubavitch are headquartered in Crown Heights, Brooklyn where I grew up. The Satmar chasidim are in Williamsburg also in Brooklyn.
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Post by showmedot on Jun 9, 2014 11:22:45 GMT -6
Just a note on the Conservadox vs. Hasidim: As far as I know, the similarities are more ones of basic beliefs than of customs.
None of hubby's family dress any differently than your typical American today, for instance. His parents keep a kosher home but not as strictly so as an Orthodox B&B where we once stayed. That place had a separate ritual handwashing sink in the kitchen, hot plates to keep food warm over the Sabbath and a timer on the bedroom-sitting room light switch for Sabbath use. Hubby's parents don't go to that extent by any means.
Hubby said he once dated an Orthodox woman from a well-to-do family who had entirely separate kitchens for dairy and meats. They also kept an apartment where they moved for Passover so there wasn't a big to-do cleaning and clearing out leavened foodstuffs. Not the norm for sure but would make keeping the separation and Passover living vastly easier.
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 9, 2014 11:32:30 GMT -6
Glad to. I appreciate Flitz bringing me back. Missed doing it. Why that connection? I have Muslim contacts with whom I dialogue and certainly numerous Muslim patients. Where do you live? . LOL! Don't we all. I guess I make the connection based on the people I have the most contact with. I'm up in North Dakota. We actually live in 2 places here. Out on the Reservation, (My wife is Native American) and in a small town with a population of 133. It is not the ideal location for a Muslim We have a choice, constant visits from fundementalist that want to convert us or visit Jewish friends in the New York Area when we visit my sister in Connecticut. While there are some Muslims in ND they are mostly concentrated in Fargo, Bismarck, and Minot. . there is some anti-Muslim sentiment up here along with very much anti-Native American for NA that don't stay on the Rez. For that reason we do very little socializing. I do have family in Ct and that is where most of my non-Muslim friends are, mostly Chassidic Jews from NY. Most of our Native American friends follow the Traditional NA religious beliefs or are Muslim, like my wife's family. I am unaware of any Jews living in North Dakota.
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 9, 2014 11:49:12 GMT -6
Dot: Yep. He and I agree as I think most Jews would who knew the history of 19th century Europe when political Zionism, as opposed to religious Zionism, began. Yes, again. It was what Polish/Lithuanian gentle folk wore to Church in 1750 when Chasidism began. It then continued as the "uniform" of the ultra-orthodox in modern times. My ancestry is mostly Lietuva Lipkas (Lithuanian Tatar) My Mother's grand mother was Ashkenazi from Polond. I don't remember the Town but seems like it was near Warsaw, somehow she settled in Vilnius Lithuania and married My Great Grandfather.. I do know I had relatives I never met that were victims of Auschwitz I have little knowledge of my "Old country" relatives except what I heard from my Grand parents. They came to the US in 1895.
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Post by showmedot on Jun 9, 2014 12:00:12 GMT -6
In CT makes sense. I'd have been amazed if your Jewish friends lived in N. Dakota.
The special ed teacher for only a year in the little SW KS high school where I taught for most of my career soon decided to go back to Minneapolis. He was Conservative and had to drive 200 miles to find a kosher butcher. I think an interest in finding a wife was likely a more compelling reason as he told me once he simply wouldn't consider mixed marriage, indeed wouldn't marry a Reform Jew even.
He did eat school lunch which certainly wasn't kosher but asked the cooks, he mentioned, what days would have dairy and meat mixtures so he could bring his lunch then. When they did spaghetti or hamburger cream gravy, for instance. The spaghetti sauce had ground beef and some kind of cheese in it. Otherwise, he kept up the spirit of the dietary laws by refusing anything obviously traif.
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 9, 2014 13:28:04 GMT -6
In CT makes sense. I'd have been amazed if your Jewish friends lived in N. Dakota. The special ed teacher for only a year in the little SW KS high school where I taught for most of my career soon decided to go back to Minneapolis. He was Conservative and had to drive 200 miles to find a kosher butcher. I think an interest in finding a wife was likely a more compelling reason as he told me once he simply wouldn't consider mixed marriage, indeed wouldn't marry a Reform Jew even. He did eat school lunch which certainly wasn't kosher but asked the cooks, he mentioned, what days would have dairy and meat mixtures so he could bring his lunch then. When they did spaghetti or hamburger cream gravy, for instance. The spaghetti sauce had ground beef and some kind of cheese in it. Otherwise, he kept up the spirit of the dietary laws by refusing anything obviously traif. Connecticut does have a large Jewish population. There are fair sized Chassidic populations in New Haven and Litchfield. But all that I know live in NYC. About an hour drive from my sisters house. Oddly I'm the mod on a Judaic fowum. I am quite certain one of the regular posters is a person I know in real life, although he has not admitted it, but neither has he denied it.
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 9, 2014 21:32:41 GMT -6
I think the above quote from the article is telling. I can tell you that there has always been the political debate among American Jews between conservative and liberal elements over Israeli policies much as there was in Israel itself. There was, however, an unwritten rule not to air our American, internal disagreements publicly. Interesting. I just found out my psychiatrist is Jewish today and that he visits Israel with some degree of regularity. I was really tempted to ask him about this, but I think the way it works is he's supposed to be the one asking the questions. Personally, I have always believed that a two state solution is the only possible one. I think Jews created a Palestinian "zionism" that is every bit as demanding as our own zionism and will have to be satisfied. Various polls of the Israelis have confirmed that the majority agree with a two state solution. The problem has been, as Abba Eban put it back in the 1970's, "The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." The peace movement in Israel as well as among Jews in the US was eviscerated in 2000 at Camp David II. President Clinton had Arafat and Ehud Barak, then prime minister of Israel, meet. The Israeli offer was 97% of the territory of the West Bank and Gaza,(with 3% of pre 1967 Israel), 99% of the Palestinian population, the Muslim and Christian quarters of Jerusalem for the Palestinian capital, and the Temple Mount; Arafat walked out. The right wing in Israel politics has dominated ever since. Interesting. I was fairly unconnected to current events during much of the 1990's due to my education. I certainly don't remember it this way--I'm wondering if it was my disconnectedness or the way it was reported. I'm pretty sure my news source was a combination of Rather and Brokaw for most of that decade--couldn't afford cable and don't think I had gotten into PBS yet.
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 9, 2014 21:40:28 GMT -6
In CT makes sense. I'd have been amazed if your Jewish friends lived in N. Dakota. The special ed teacher for only a year in the little SW KS high school where I taught for most of my career soon decided to go back to Minneapolis. He was Conservative and had to drive 200 miles to find a kosher butcher. I think an interest in finding a wife was likely a more compelling reason as he told me once he simply wouldn't consider mixed marriage, indeed wouldn't marry a Reform Jew even. He did eat school lunch which certainly wasn't kosher but asked the cooks, he mentioned, what days would have dairy and meat mixtures so he could bring his lunch then. When they did spaghetti or hamburger cream gravy, for instance. The spaghetti sauce had ground beef and some kind of cheese in it. Otherwise, he kept up the spirit of the dietary laws by refusing anything obviously traif. Connecticut does have a large Jewish population. There are fair sized Chassidic populations in New Haven and Litchfield. But all that I know live in NYC. About an hour drive from my sisters house. Oddly I'm the mod on a Judaic fowum. I am quite certain one of the regular posters is a person I know in real life, although he has not admitted it, but neither has he denied it. I grew up in CT. My cul-de-sac was roughly 30% Reform Judaism, 30% Italian Catholic, 20% Greek Orthodox, 10% Polish (Catholic, I think, possibly Orthodox), with us as the token WASPs. I think the divorcee whose lawn I mowed was an atheist, but mostly she was just fodder for rumors and innuendo. A single woman in a respectable suburban neighborhood....GASP! Incidently, my Jewish neighbors always gave the best paper route tips at Christmas.
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 10, 2014 5:02:24 GMT -6
In CT makes sense. I'd have been amazed if your Jewish friends lived in N. Dakota. The special ed teacher for only a year in the little SW KS high school where I taught for most of my career soon decided to go back to Minneapolis. He was Conservative and had to drive 200 miles to find a kosher butcher. I think an interest in finding a wife was likely a more compelling reason as he told me once he simply wouldn't consider mixed marriage, indeed wouldn't marry a Reform Jew even. He did eat school lunch which certainly wasn't kosher but asked the cooks, he mentioned, what days would have dairy and meat mixtures so he could bring his lunch then. When they did spaghetti or hamburger cream gravy, for instance. The spaghetti sauce had ground beef and some kind of cheese in it. Otherwise, he kept up the spirit of the dietary laws by refusing anything obviously traif. This thread got me looking. I did discover there are Jews in ND about 400. There is even a Chasidic Rabbi in Fargo. I never expected that. See HERE
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Post by showmedot on Jun 10, 2014 7:11:28 GMT -6
What you think you know ain't so, huh?
That surprises me, too.
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Post by woodrowli on Jun 10, 2014 8:16:11 GMT -6
What you think you know ain't so, huh? That surprises me, too. Learn something new every day.
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Post by howiedds on Jun 10, 2014 16:50:19 GMT -6
Flitz:
I don't recall how it was reported, but I suspect the offer was eclipsed by the trouble that immediately followed Arafat's walk out. The second intifada followed on the heels of the walkout, and that probably sucked all the air out of the news reporting.
That, however, was the deal on the table at Camp David II. I was surprised thinking to myself that Ehud Barak could even get the Israel public to approve such a deal. When Arafat walked out and the intifada began, Ehud Barak and his party lost the prime minister spot and Ariel Sharon and his party formed the next government. They were, of course, more right wing and intransigent than the left leaning labor party of Barak. Benjamin Netanyahu is from Sharon's Likud party and perpetuates that hard line. I remember saying to myself or to the tv, addressing Arafat, "if you didn't like Barak, you're gonna love Sharon."
In the 1970's the Likud was called "not an incher" in Hebrew in Israel, reflecting that their stance of "not an inch" to be given to the Palestinians. I cringed when Yitzhak Shamir, the predecessor of Ariel Sharon and Benj. Netanyahu, the successor of Menachem Begin, said that to Dan Rather. That right wing party still forms the government today under Netanyahu, but their position has softened considerably since the 1970's . (Ehud Barak from labor is actually in Netanyahu's government, indicating how far they've come together.)
The biggest obstacle to a process that would lead to a peace agreement is the dispute between the West Bank Palestinians who may be more willing to accept the State of Israel next door and the Hamas in Gaza which rejects any Israel in the neighborhood. I know we have jerks on our side as well, but they would be shouted down as they were during the Sinai and Gaza withdrawals
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Post by Jim on Jun 10, 2014 18:56:15 GMT -6
Flitz: I don't recall how it was reported, but I suspect the offer was eclipsed by the trouble that immediately followed Arafat's walk out. The second intifada followed on the heels of the walkout, and that probably sucked all the air out of the news reporting. That, however, was the deal on the table at Camp David II. I was surprised thinking to myself that Ehud Barak could even get the Israel public to approve such a deal. When Arafat walked out and the intifada began, Ehud Barak and his party lost the prime minister spot and Ariel Sharon and his party formed the next government. They were, of course, more right wing and intransigent than the left leaning labor party of Barak. Benjamin Netanyahu is from Sharon's Likud party and perpetuates that hard line. I remember saying to myself or to the tv, addressing Arafat, "if you didn't like Barak, you're gonna love Sharon." In the 1970's the Likud was called "not an incher" in Hebrew in Israel, reflecting that their stance of "not an inch" to be given to the Palestinians. I cringed when Yitzhak Shamir, the predecessor of Ariel Sharon and Benj. Netanyahu, the successor of Menachem Begin, said that to Dan Rather. That right wing party still forms the government today under Netanyahu, but their position has softened considerably since the 1970's . (Ehud Barak from labor is actually in Netanyahu's government, indicating how far they've come together.) The biggest obstacle to a process that would lead to a peace agreement is the dispute between the West Bank Palestinians who may be more willing to accept the State of Israel next door and the Hamas in Gaza which rejects any Israel in the neighborhood. I know we have jerks on our side as well, but they would be shouted down as they were during the Sinai and Gaza withdrawals FB; my apologies. This is an interesting discussion. Howie: Your summary is exactly how I remember the negotiations. At the time, I remember thinking that Israel offered everything possible - 100% capitulation according to my news source (not sure who my source was, probably the WSJ or the right-leaning Rocky Mountain News, now defunct). Even with everything he could dream of on the table Arafat walked out. At the time I read (or thought...) that no Palestinian peace was ever possible while Arafat was alive. His vested interest in eternal conflict was obvious for the world to see. He got the Nobel Peace Prize a few years later - tough to understand from my view. I Googled the 2000 Summit and was reminded of a magnificent quote from President Clinton: {Arafat said to Clinton} "You are a great man." Clinton responded, "I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you made me one." Jim
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Post by howiedds on Jun 11, 2014 12:07:21 GMT -6
Jim:
Except the one detail that could have closed the deal, no Israel. Remember the Palestinian phrase, "from the river to the sea."
Your accurate description was what destroyed the peace movement in Israel and among us American Jews who knew that only a two state solution was a possible road map to peace.
My brother the Republican, whom I love dearly except for that one flaw (except that New York Republicans are considered socialists in Texas), says that a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged. The peace movement was mugged in 2000 at Camp David II
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 12, 2014 22:49:12 GMT -6
Jim: Except the one detail that could have closed the deal, no Israel. Remember the Palestinian phrase, "from the river to the sea." Your accurate description was what destroyed the peace movement in Israel and among us American Jews who knew that only a two state solution was a possible road map to peace. My brother the Republican, whom I love dearly except for that one flaw (except that New York Republicans are considered socialists in Texas), says that a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged. The peace movement was mugged in 2000 at Camp David II Eventually one has to be willing to walk through the city streets again. What is it going to take? I took the quoted article as a positive sign--diversity of opinion is usually a good sign that people are thinking. I wouldn't pretend to understand the issues well enough to suggest detailed solutions, but I share you opinion that a two state solution is the best pathway forward. Unfortunately, I am less optimistic that it will be stable.
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