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Post by Jim on May 1, 2014 9:19:18 GMT -6
This is the illogical but inevitable conclusion of Stand Your Ground laws. These cases are proliferating all over the country, and in South Africa for that matter (c.f. Oscar Pistorius). While it is somewhat gratifying to see a few murder defenses fail on this principle, there are more than enough egregious non-prosecutions to establish this as a murder loophole for deliberately aggressive, confrontational gun nuts. Hi FB: Maybe so, but I don't think you can successfully argue that these cases are "proliferating all over the country" based upon two news articles and a nebulous reach to Pistorius. Do you have any evidence? Do we even know if the dude in MN was a "gun nut"?* The murder by gun rates are dropping in the US. www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004888.html www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4863I'm not sure why, but it certainly is not because guns have become less prevalent or because gun laws have tightened up. Gun nuts would argue that this welcome statistical trend is in fact the predictable and beneficial result of lax gun ownership laws and policies like "stand your ground" statutes. I don't find that position particularly persuasive, but at least the stats support the gun nuts in this case. My guess is that enhanced inner-city law enforcement along the lines of what Giuliani and Bloomberg brought to NYC are behind this trend. I would also guess that "set a trap and murder some kids in your home" cases are very rare, not proliferating, and would typically be the unfortunate effect of mental illness, not any particular statute or policy. Jim * (I'll define "gun nut" as a politically active gun owner who thinks the 2nd Amendment trumps all and genuinely believes that guns are what stand between the citizens and a totalitarian government) |
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Post by Jim on May 1, 2014 9:22:49 GMT -6
Wow, there's no mention of psychiatric testimony. I guess the defense budget was limited. Maybe the psychiatrists examined this defendant and simply determined that he was a mean, cruel and evil son of a bitch, but not crazy. I too would have thought that the defendant's sanity would be an issue. |
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Post by stevec on May 1, 2014 10:18:14 GMT -6
Wow, there's no mention of psychiatric testimony. I guess the defense budget was limited. Maybe the psychiatrists examined this defendant and simply determined that he was a mean, cruel and evil son of a bitch, but not crazy. I too would have thought that the defendant's sanity would be an issue. I guess justice was served. I had no sympathy for the guy and wanted to see him convicted of murder, but I thought there was more to the story from an impaired mental perspective, I also thought the murder was more recent and had no clue we were discussing the case mid trial. Btw, I was hoping we'd be able to hockey trash talk. |
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Post by Flitzerbiest on May 1, 2014 13:55:47 GMT -6
This is the illogical but inevitable conclusion of Stand Your Ground laws. These cases are proliferating all over the country, and in South Africa for that matter (c.f. Oscar Pistorius). While it is somewhat gratifying to see a few murder defenses fail on this principle, there are more than enough egregious non-prosecutions to establish this as a murder loophole for deliberately aggressive, confrontational gun nuts. Hi FB: Maybe so, but I don't think you can successfully argue that these cases are "proliferating all over the country" based upon two news articles and a nebulous reach to Pistorius. Do you have any evidence? Do we even know if the dude in MN was a "gun nut"?* The murder by gun rates are dropping in the US. www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004888.html www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4863I'm not sure why, but it certainly is not because guns have become less prevalent or because gun laws have tightened up. Gun nuts would argue that this welcome statistical trend is in fact the predictable and beneficial result of lax gun ownership laws and policies like "stand your ground" statutes. I don't find that position particularly persuasive, but at least the stats support the gun nuts in this case. My guess is that enhanced inner-city law enforcement along the lines of what Giuliani and Bloomberg brought to NYC are behind this trend. I would also guess that "set a trap and murder some kids in your home" cases are very rare, not proliferating, and would typically be the unfortunate effect of mental illness, not any particular statute or policy. Jim * (I'll define "gun nut" as a politically active gun owner who thinks the 2nd Amendment trumps all and genuinely believes that guns are what stand between the citizens and a totalitarian government)There are plenty of cases to look at. Here's a nice meta-site if you want to peruse case by case from Florida, the epicenter of vigilantism: www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/fatal-casesI believe that I have already cited cases from Texas and Minnesota. You'll find a Wyoming case very similar (trap setting) to the MN case if you're interested. Meanwhile, the "I don't really buy it but the statistics suggest.." bit is BS: blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/06/11/study-says-stand-your-ground-laws-increase-homicides/Ditto with the canard about dropping murder rates. They've been dropping for decades. What's clear is this particular sort of homicide is increasing dramatically, and doing so in exactly those areas that have gone farthest to permit it. |
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Post by Flitzerbiest on May 1, 2014 15:54:07 GMT -6
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Post by Jim on May 1, 2014 16:00:32 GMT -6
Hi FB: Maybe so, but I don't think you can successfully argue that these cases are "proliferating all over the country" based upon two news articles and a nebulous reach to Pistorius. Do you have any evidence? Do we even know if the dude in MN was a "gun nut"?* The murder by gun rates are dropping in the US. www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004888.html www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4863I'm not sure why, but it certainly is not because guns have become less prevalent or because gun laws have tightened up. Gun nuts would argue that this welcome statistical trend is in fact the predictable and beneficial result of lax gun ownership laws and policies like "stand your ground" statutes. I don't find that position particularly persuasive, but at least the stats support the gun nuts in this case. My guess is that enhanced inner-city law enforcement along the lines of what Giuliani and Bloomberg brought to NYC are behind this trend. I would also guess that "set a trap and murder some kids in your home" cases are very rare, not proliferating, and would typically be the unfortunate effect of mental illness, not any particular statute or policy. Jim * (I'll define "gun nut" as a politically active gun owner who thinks the 2nd Amendment trumps all and genuinely believes that guns are what stand between the citizens and a totalitarian government)There are plenty of cases to look at. Here's a nice meta-site if you want to peruse case by case from Florida, the epicenter of vigilantism: www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/fatal-casesI believe that I have already cited cases from Texas and Minnesota. You'll find a Wyoming case very similar (trap setting) to the MN case if you're interested. Meanwhile, the "I don't really buy it but the statistics suggest.." bit is BS: blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/06/11/study-says-stand-your-ground-laws-increase-homicides/Ditto with the canard about dropping murder rates. They've been dropping for decades. What's clear is this particular sort of homicide is increasing dramatically, and doing so in exactly those areas that have gone farthest to permit it. FB: The Tampa site is interesting and I hovered over a few of the cases. I saw several convictions and plea deals. There are also some acquittals that would probably have been acquittals in any state. (I read one where two guys came home and surprised intruders, who then pulled a gun on them. The homeowners shot the intruders and were not charged with any crime. Why is this even included in a stand your ground list? Those facts are legitimate self-defense anywhere) Bottom line, The Tampa site does not support the thesis that stand your ground homicide is increasing because there is no baseline. It is just a list with no reference points from before stand your ground. Also, we're talking past each other a bit. I actually thought we were talking about this particular "I'm going to set a pre-meditated trap and then murder some teenagers in my home" kind of crime. I see now that you are talking about general self defense or stand your ground cases. No problem, I am on the same page now. I'll take a look at the study quoted in the WSJ a bit later. Jim |
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Post by Jim on May 1, 2014 19:12:21 GMT -6
Btw, I was hoping we'd be able to hockey trash talk. My kingdom for some D - in any sport.... OK, the Rox have D, but will we have pitching come September, not likely if history teaches us anything... Harrumph. J |
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