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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 16, 2014 20:53:27 GMT -6
Right. Better to ignore the truth than to admit that one's path to salvation is paved with bullshit.
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Post by showmedot on Jun 16, 2014 21:05:37 GMT -6
You have yet to provide the source Jim requested of you, the one demonstrating that child molestation was/is more prevalent among priests than adult males otherwise.
I'd like to see that source myself, FB.
I haven't read the Jay report in its entirety yet, but what I have read definitely does not support your position that priests were/are notably more likely than anyone else to sexually abuse children.
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Post by Jim on Jun 17, 2014 9:00:50 GMT -6
The John Jay Report appears to be the definitive study. Sorry, I can't link it, but the Kindle goes directly into download mode when I click on the site, easily googled though. Said study found the rate in fact is no higher than among similar groups of adults with extensive contact with children. I think the assumption that there are more pedophiles among priests probably reflects the general view that the priesthood is an abnormal profession due largely to enforced celibacy. For Catholics, I suspect the shock and horror result in part from the teaching that the priest acts as Christ on earth in confession. There's a definite aura of otherworldliness about that idea that I think heavily colors how Catholics trust and regard priests, not to mention the associations with the title "Father." Thanks Dot. Thanks for the link above FB. Jim |
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Post by Jim on Jun 17, 2014 9:16:57 GMT -6
Yes and no. I can understand your derision of those whom you believe simply look the other way, present company included. On the other hand, many professions including but certainly not limited to pediatrics, education and youth sport coaching have harbored plenty of active pedophiles. It is not unreasonable (in my view) to support these institutions while condemning the pedophiles on staff and the leadership that shelters them. Do you see this point? Jim I would if the problem were isolated, rare, or in line with population based expectations--never mind the issue of "moral high ground" for the moment. Do you honestly think that's the case for the RCC? Hi FB: I don't think the problem is isolated or rare. It might be in-line with population based expectations though. I have not read the report, but I will. You clearly expect Catholics to vote with their feet. Some will and some have. It is not hard to imagine why others have not. The Church has good aspects and bad aspects which is exactly the same as is true for all human institutions. For many Catholics the good outweighs the bad. Why would they leave? The radio news on my drive in this morning included a lengthy piece about the fallout from a not-so-recent pedophilia event in the local (Douglas County) public schools. The perpetrator has received 22 years. The family is suing the district for years of looking the other way followed by active cover-up. The criminal justice system has spoken. Now the civil justice system will decide whether the school system needs to be punished. Not surprisingly, the school system has been stonewalling mightily. No one involved with the case will talk at all. The stonewall tactics are distasteful to us of course, but it is necessary that the school system be able to defend itself if the greater needs of justice are to be preserved. No one is calling for a district wide boycott of the school system - which in fact is one of the better districts in Colorado. J |
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Post by showmedot on Jun 17, 2014 10:26:27 GMT -6
It was not that difficult for me to understand why my elderly aunt and uncle didn't abandon the Church. Both were kids in the Depression and young adults during WWII, my uncle a war vet. They were much more accustomed to harsh and overt anti-Catholic attacks than occurred a decade later when I was growing up. As a result, it made sense to them that that's largely what reports of pedophile priests were.
Church was a much more profound element in people's lives for most of their adulthood than it is for a lot of us boomers.
As Jim stated, people aren't so quick to jump ship as any of us might think they should be. The situation is too complex for such a presumably simple solution.
In a way, it's akin to the nastiness that "America--Love It Or Leave It" inflicted upon Vietnam War protestors by those thinking any criticism of U.S. involvement amounted to treason.
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Post by stevec on Jun 17, 2014 10:34:35 GMT -6
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Post by showmedot on Jun 17, 2014 11:17:15 GMT -6
Geez, Steve. Only bleeding heart liberals don't believe in free will. Everybody else knows that if society doesn't get crooks, God eventually will. Wassamatta with you? < sassy grin >
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 18, 2014 5:08:53 GMT -6
I would if the problem were isolated, rare, or in line with population based expectations--never mind the issue of "moral high ground" for the moment. Do you honestly think that's the case for the RCC? Hi FB: I don't think the problem is isolated or rare. It might be in-line with population based expectations though. I have not read the report, but I will. You clearly expect Catholics to vote with their feet. Some will and some have. It is not hard to imagine why others have not. The Church has good aspects and bad aspects which is exactly the same as is true for all human institutions. For many Catholics the good outweighs the bad. Why would they leave? The radio news on my drive in this morning included a lengthy piece about the fallout from a not-so-recent pedophilia event in the local (Douglas County) public schools. The perpetrator has received 22 years. The family is suing the district for years of looking the other way followed by active cover-up. The criminal justice system has spoken. Now the civil justice system will decide whether the school system needs to be punished. Not surprisingly, the school system has been stonewalling mightily. No one involved with the case will talk at all. The stonewall tactics are distasteful to us of course, but it is necessary that the school system be able to defend itself if the greater needs of justice are to be preserved. No one is calling for a district wide boycott of the school system - which in fact is one of the better districts in Colorado. J Did the school system: 1. Know of the abuse while it was occurring? 2. Fail to report? 3. Shuffle the perpetrator from school to school to try to avoid legal entanglements, exposing more children in the process? 4. Threaten the jobs of anyone who reported to civil authorities? 5. Promote the person who made such threats to Superintendent? If so, I would be happy to discuss these cases as parallel. |
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 18, 2014 5:11:16 GMT -6
Of course this is making a mighty concession on my part, i.e. that some greater good is preserved by the preservation of the RCC that parallels the survival of a public education system. I don't buy it personally, but I'm really trying to work with you here.
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Post by Jim on Jun 18, 2014 9:52:52 GMT -6
Hi FB: I don't think the problem is isolated or rare. It might be in-line with population based expectations though. I have not read the report, but I will. You clearly expect Catholics to vote with their feet. Some will and some have. It is not hard to imagine why others have not. The Church has good aspects and bad aspects which is exactly the same as is true for all human institutions. For many Catholics the good outweighs the bad. Why would they leave? The radio news on my drive in this morning included a lengthy piece about the fallout from a not-so-recent pedophilia event in the local (Douglas County) public schools. The perpetrator has received 22 years. The family is suing the district for years of looking the other way followed by active cover-up. The criminal justice system has spoken. Now the civil justice system will decide whether the school system needs to be punished. Not surprisingly, the school system has been stonewalling mightily. No one involved with the case will talk at all. The stonewall tactics are distasteful to us of course, but it is necessary that the school system be able to defend itself if the greater needs of justice are to be preserved. No one is calling for a district wide boycott of the school system - which in fact is one of the better districts in Colorado. J Did the school system: 1. Know of the abuse while it was occurring? 2. Fail to report? 3. Shuffle the perpetrator from school to school to try to avoid legal entanglements, exposing more children in the process? 4. Threaten the jobs of anyone who reported to civil authorities? 5. Promote the person who made such threats to Superintendent? If so, I would be happy to discuss these cases as parallel. According to the news report of the lawsuit, the school system absolutely did 1-3. Obviously I have no inside knowledge as to the truth of the allegations. The allegations of active cover-up in the civil lawsuit suggest that #4 might have been in play. I did not hear an allegation of #5. These cases are reasonably parallel even if there are distinctions. The key points of similarity are that those who were in the know failed to expose the perpetrator and therefore facilitated his predation. In addition, in response to the civil lawsuit, the organizations are circling the wagons. There are differences of course. So what? Are you suggesting that the school system case is irrelevant to the point we were actually discussing because the parallels are not perfect? Jim |
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Post by Jim on Jun 18, 2014 10:01:25 GMT -6
Of course this is making a mighty concession on my part, i.e. that some greater good is preserved by the preservation of the RCC that parallels the survival of a public education system. I don't buy it personally, but I'm really trying to work with you here. Your disdain for organized religion has been duly noted. Of course, the RCC is being preserved by those who value it, not those who hate it. Feel free to despise those who support and value a flawed institution if you want... Jim |
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Post by Jim on Jun 18, 2014 10:51:59 GMT -6
Did the school system: 1. Know of the abuse while it was occurring? 2. Fail to report? 3. Shuffle the perpetrator from school to school to try to avoid legal entanglements, exposing more children in the process? 4. Threaten the jobs of anyone who reported to civil authorities? 5. Promote the person who made such threats to Superintendent? If so, I would be happy to discuss these cases as parallel. According to the news report of the lawsuit, the school system absolutely did 1-3. Obviously I have no inside knowledge as to the truth of the allegations. The allegations of active cover-up in the civil lawsuit suggest that #4 might have been in play. I did not hear an allegation of #5. These cases are reasonably parallel even if there are distinctions. The key points of similarity are that those who were in the know failed to expose the perpetrator and therefore facilitated his predation. In addition, in response to the civil lawsuit, the organizations are circling the wagons. There are differences of course. So what? Are you suggesting that the school system case is irrelevant to the point we were actually discussing because the parallels are not perfect? Jim "The suit, which was filed in federal court Monday afternoon, alleges that administrators at Rocky Heights Middle School dismissed reports of a sexual relationship between former math teacher Richard "Rick" Johnson and a then-13-year-old student. Failure to investigate the allegations allowed Johnson to "groom and prey" on the student for several months before he sexually assaulted her dozens of times, according to the lawsuit. The school's principal, Patricia Dierberger, and assistant principal James McMurphy punished students who reported the abuse and lied to parents who inquired about an investigation, according to the lawsuit." "During the spring semester, two students told Dierberger they, and other students in the class, believed there was a sexual relationship between Johnson and the victim. The principal suspended the two students and made them write Johnson an apology.The mother of one of suspended students contacted Dierberger the same day and urged her to take the reports seriously, according to the suit. The father of the second suspended student also asked the school to investigate his son's claims. Both parents were told the reports would be investigated. According to the suit, the reports were not investigated and the victim's parents were not notified of the claims.
(Emphasis added) If there is truth here, I think we have #1-4 covered. Jim |
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 18, 2014 11:53:38 GMT -6
Of course this is making a mighty concession on my part, i.e. that some greater good is preserved by the preservation of the RCC that parallels the survival of a public education system. I don't buy it personally, but I'm really trying to work with you here. Your disdain for organized religion has been duly noted. Of course, the RCC is being preserved by those who value it, not those who hate it. Feel free to despise those who support and value a flawed institution if you want... Jim Flawed? 1. RCC clergy were complicit in the Rwandan massacre: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanase_Serombaen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenceslas_Munyeshyakaen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_RukundoThere as is the priest/rapist scandal, the lateness, vagary and obfuscation by the RCC has been noted internally and externally. 2. The teachings of the church on condom use have lead to catastrophic and widespread suffering in Africa and worldwide, generally being considered a critical obstruction in the global response to HIV. churchandstate.org.uk/2012/12/the-catholic-church-condoms-and-hiv-aids-in-africa/3. Proscription of birth control is contributing, particularly in Latin America, poverty and a collision course with Malthusian destiny, against the better instincts of even Catholics themselves: www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)67121-8/fulltext4. Official Catholic support of abstinence only sex education, shown to be ineffective in disease and pregnancy prevention, threatens to derail efforts to control STI's in the US and elsewhere. 5. RCC teaching on homosexuality as "moral evil" marginalizes 5-8% of the world population. On these issues alone, I would hold that the RCC is amongthe most dangerous institutions on the planet. Valued institution? It depends on what you're willing to overlook, I suppose. |
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Post by Flitzerbiest on Jun 18, 2014 12:44:49 GMT -6
Did the school system: 1. Know of the abuse while it was occurring? 2. Fail to report? 3. Shuffle the perpetrator from school to school to try to avoid legal entanglements, exposing more children in the process? 4. Threaten the jobs of anyone who reported to civil authorities? 5. Promote the person who made such threats to Superintendent? If so, I would be happy to discuss these cases as parallel. According to the news report of the lawsuit, the school system absolutely did 1-3. Obviously I have no inside knowledge as to the truth of the allegations. The allegations of active cover-up in the civil lawsuit suggest that #4 might have been in play. I did not hear an allegation of #5. These cases are reasonably parallel even if there are distinctions. The key points of similarity are that those who were in the know failed to expose the perpetrator and therefore facilitated his predation. In addition, in response to the civil lawsuit, the organizations are circling the wagons. There are differences of course. So what? Are you suggesting that the school system case is irrelevant to the point we were actually discussing because the parallels are not perfect? Jim Thanks for the link. I haven't yet seen anything to say that the parallels are even close, although a) I will keep an open mind about it, and b) if the school system is guilty of malfeasance, intentionally or through ignorance, I would support full criminal prosecution to the extent of the law. Let's go through the list, though: 1. Did the district know that the abuse was occurring, or did they dismiss it as non-credible--in error if the plaintiffs version of the facts hold. In the RCC scandal, there is strong evidence that the church knew for a fact that it had pedophiles on its rosters and still failed to act. It was not simply a case of not taking allegations seriously. It was a matter of accepting allegations as substantively true and then posturing to make sure that the church did not come into a bad light. 2. Absolutely. 3. Where do you did this? 4. We'll see what the trial exposes here. It sounds like the accusers were concerned parents and students and parents. I certainly don't see that mandatory reporters were threatened for reporting. Don't get me wrong--if the plaintiff is right on this part, I think the suit will carry and ought to. 5. Should Pope Benedict be tried for obstruction of justice the clerical abuse scandal? Why or why not? www.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/world/europe/02pope.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 |
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Post by Jim on Jun 18, 2014 14:10:00 GMT -6
Your disdain for organized religion has been duly noted. Of course, the RCC is being preserved by those who value it, not those who hate it. Feel free to despise those who support and value a flawed institution if you want... Jim Flawed? 1. RCC clergy were complicit in the Rwandan massacre: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanase_Serombaen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenceslas_Munyeshyakaen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_RukundoThere as is the priest/rapist scandal, the lateness, vagary and obfuscation by the RCC has been noted internally and externally. 2. The teachings of the church on condom use have lead to catastrophic and widespread suffering in Africa and worldwide, generally being considered a critical obstruction in the global response to HIV. churchandstate.org.uk/2012/12/the-catholic-church-condoms-and-hiv-aids-in-africa/3. Proscription of birth control is contributing, particularly in Latin America, poverty and a collision course with Malthusian destiny, against the better instincts of even Catholics themselves: www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)67121-8/fulltext4. Official Catholic support of abstinence only sex education, shown to be ineffective in disease and pregnancy prevention, threatens to derail efforts to control STI's in the US and elsewhere. 5. RCC teaching on homosexuality as "moral evil" marginalizes 5-8% of the world population. On these issues alone, I would hold that the RCC is amongthe most dangerous institutions on the planet. Valued institution? It depends on what you're willing to overlook, I suppose. Please run other institutions such as all of Islam or the secular governments of Russia, China and India through your metrics 1-5 above and you will see that a fairly large majority of humanity lives under the boot of one or more of "the most dangerous institutions on the planet." Unlike some other institutions, the RCC does not advocate wiping populations off of the face of the earth and has not implemented policies that result in mass starvation, at least not recently. We are moving far afield from my original point however. You are unwilling to acknowledge that many millions of people do find value in the Church because the Church has significant redeeming aspects. The value these people place in a flawed institution apparently bothers you significantly more than other people's allegiance to similarly flawed institutions. You can explain why, if you want. Jim |
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