|
Post by ken on Jan 27, 2014 11:12:17 GMT -6
The point was plain and simple as I have stated before, to wit: "People complain about separation of church and state and then turn around and fund a religious basin." A little hypocritical IMO. My comment won't change anything as none of our discussion really affect any outcome other than we are more informed... it remains simply a comment. Yes,it's hypocritical, but there's nothing we can do about it, you evangelicals have seen to that. You've wanted freedom to express yourself publically, you've got it, now we have to grant it to every religion. I'm not sure one can pin that on evangelicals. This came after secularists redefined separation of church and state--but that is a whole 'nudder ball of wax.
|
|
|
Post by ken on Jan 27, 2014 11:14:41 GMT -6
I'm not sure what "competition" you are referring to. Could you expound a little? Recruiting, resources, recognition - you couldn't figure that out? I'm not "competing". I don't think any Christian views it as "competing". I'm not aware of any religious organization "completing". Thus my question.
|
|
|
Post by showmedot on Jan 27, 2014 11:24:19 GMT -6
Where I'm going with it, Ken, is that while we may EXPECT people to bring footwashing basins, that doesn't mean they will do it. You know how people are when it comes to cleaning up decently after themselves in bathrooms, I'd think, having had kids.
And when a dozen Muslim kids at the local high school decide the restroom sink works plenty fine and is easy to use, can't be bothered to clean up splatters, puddles they leave behind, towels that missed the trash container, and dash off to their Muslim club meeting leaving a mess for the janitors to clean up, problems and unnecessary work result for others.
You actually think that a teenager, high school or university, will carefully carry a basin to school daily when the handwashing sink is right there for use? Really?
|
|
|
Post by stevec on Jan 27, 2014 11:28:20 GMT -6
Ya know Dot, just when I thought Ken had turned the corner, and figured out it's better to answer honestly, we get this BS.
Ken, christians hardly bear the full brunt of school activities, the community does in the way of custodial, heating/electrical, and insurance costs. Your religious expression demands will cost big bucks. Again, a wash basin is peanuts as a one time investment, the serious issue is the recurring costs I mentioned which will amount to many thousands over the years.
|
|
|
Post by showmedot on Jan 27, 2014 11:40:00 GMT -6
Religious competition in public schools? I can predict how that will cause problems.
Once we agree that religious clubs can meet during the school day, we will also have to schedule activities they want to offer to promote their faith and provide some place and time for handing out materials about basic teachings of each faith that has a school club.
Since school is about learning, each club will want time to present a program in celebration of its faith's holidays. We'll have the Wiccans wanting an hour some evening for their Samhain program, the Christians a Christmas one, Jews Hanukkah, Muslims Ramadan, New Agers Earth Day---you name it, each club will have to be given equal time to present its program at some point during the school year.
And then there'll be recruiting... "How about joining the Satanic Students Club? Anyone is welcome."
Hairpulling and nightmares will result for teachers and activities directors.
|
|
|
Post by stevec on Jan 27, 2014 11:41:44 GMT -6
Forget about it, Ken, you're back to your dishonest ways. I take back the compliment, you never intended to be open minded.
Typical Christians, if one isn't telling me to go fuck myself, another is being dishonest/circuitous.
|
|
|
Post by ken on Jan 27, 2014 11:44:31 GMT -6
Where I'm going with it, Ken, is that while we may EXPECT people to bring footwashing basins, that doesn't mean they will do it. You know how people are when it comes to cleaning up decently after themselves in bathrooms, I'd think, having had kids. And when a dozen Muslim kids at the local high school decide the restroom sink works plenty fine and is easy to use, can't be bothered to clean up splatters, puddles they leave behind, towels that missed the trash container, and dash off to their Muslim club meeting leaving a mess for the janitors to clean up, problems and unnecessary work result for others. You actually think that a teenager, high school or university, will carefully carry a basin to school daily when the handwashing sink is right there for use? Really? You are creating a totally different issue. If there is a separation of church and state (i.e. no monies given for religious purposes) -- then that is the law. What is so hard about that simple reality?
|
|
|
Post by ken on Jan 27, 2014 11:45:58 GMT -6
Ya know Dot, just when I thought Ken had turned the corner, and figured out it's better to answer honestly, we get this BS. Steve... is this a habit? When you have no good answers just attack?
|
|
|
Post by ken on Jan 27, 2014 11:46:31 GMT -6
Forget about it, Ken, you're back to your dishonest ways. I take back the compliment, you never intended to be open minded. Typical Christians, if one isn't telling me to go fuck myself, another is being dishonest/circuitous. You are too funny.
|
|
|
Post by ken on Jan 27, 2014 11:54:52 GMT -6
Religious competition in public schools? I can predict how that will cause problems. Once we agree that religious clubs can meet during the school day, we will also have to schedule activities they want to offer to promote their faith and provide some place and time for handing out materials about basic teachings of each faith that has a school club. Since school is about learning, each club will want time to present a program in celebration of its faith's holidays. We'll have the Wiccans wanting an hour some evening for their Samhain program, the Christians a Christmas one, Jews Hanukkah, Muslims Ramadan, New Agers Earth Day---you name it, each club will have to be given equal time to present its program at some point during the school year. And then there'll be recruiting... "How about joining the Satanic Students Club? Anyone is welcome." Hairpulling and nightmares will result for teachers and activities directors. Dot, religious clubs have been in existence for who knows how long. School continues just fine.
|
|
|
Post by showmedot on Jan 27, 2014 11:55:59 GMT -6
"You are creating a totally different issue. If there is a separation of church and state (i.e. no monies given for religious purposes) -- then that is the law. What is so hard about that simple reality?"
Ken, the issue is that you've said when asked that students should be able to pray openly in schools. The result could well be the religious clubs we've been discussing and the problems already raised by having to deal with footwashing by individuals would multiply.
So, are you now saying that no, the Virginia bill must not become law because you want strict separation of church and state? Which is it?
|
|
|
Post by ken on Jan 27, 2014 12:20:36 GMT -6
"You are creating a totally different issue. If there is a separation of church and state (i.e. no monies given for religious purposes) -- then that is the law. What is so hard about that simple reality?" Ken, the issue is that you've said when asked that students should be able to pray openly in schools. The result could well be the religious clubs we've been discussing and the problems already raised by having to deal with footwashing by individuals would multiply. So, are you now saying that no, the Virginia bill must not become law because you want strict separation of church and state? Which is it? Dot--I hadn't commented on the original post but may I first say that I was very specific about separation in reference to "(i.e. no monies given for religious purposes)". That being said, prayer in school (assuming that we aren't talking about 3 people standing up in the middle of class time to pray) is a free speech issue and should be protected.
|
|
|
Post by stevec on Jan 27, 2014 13:19:33 GMT -6
Okay, Ken, since this university issue has run it's course - I actually thought you had an intelligent reason for focusing on public universities - anyway, it's not hypocritical for public universities to put Muslim wash basins around the campus. It's good business sense. All universities, private and public, are in the student recruitment business. It's not like K-12 where school districts serve a local population that's bused in and fixed. Universities recruit across state borders and internationally, and therefore serve an extremely diverse student population. If you want Muslims paying high tuitions, and supporting through alumni associations, then foot wash basins are friggin minor investments. Also, high drop out rates will cost a university a fortune, so retaining students, even at the cost of foot washing facilities, is a minor inconvenience. It's a business decision, not a religious one.
|
|
|
Post by ken on Jan 27, 2014 13:45:08 GMT -6
Okay, Ken, since this university issue has run it's course - I actually thought you had an intelligent reason for focusing on public universities - anyway, it's not hypocritical for public universities to put Muslim wash basins around the campus. It's good business sense. All universities, private and public, are in the student recruitment business. It's not like K-12 where school districts serve a local population that's bused in and fixed. Universities recruit across state borders and internationally, and therefore serve an extremely diverse student population. If you want Muslims paying high tuitions, and supporting through alumni associations, then foot wash basins are friggin minor investments. Also, high drop out rates will cost a university a fortune, so retaining students, even at the cost of foot washing facilities, is a minor inconvenience. It's a business decision, not a religious one. It is ok if it is private. IMV, if it is public you are opening your can of worms because you are commencing a precedent, not to mention that is against policy, thus the intelligent reason for focusing on public university. Time will tell who is right.
|
|
|
Post by showmedot on Jan 27, 2014 15:03:28 GMT -6
Okay, Ken, since this university issue has run it's course - I actually thought you had an intelligent reason for focusing on public universities - anyway, it's not hypocritical for public universities to put Muslim wash basins around the campus. It's good business sense. All universities, private and public, are in the student recruitment business. It's not like K-12 where school districts serve a local population that's bused in and fixed. Universities recruit across state borders and internationally, and therefore serve an extremely diverse student population. If you want Muslims paying high tuitions, and supporting through alumni associations, then foot wash basins are friggin minor investments. Also, high drop out rates will cost a university a fortune, so retaining students, even at the cost of foot washing facilities, is a minor inconvenience. It's a business decision, not a religious one. It is ok if it is private. IMV, if it is public you are opening your can of worms because you are commencing a precedent, not to mention that is against policy, thus the intelligent reason for focusing on public university. Time will tell who is right. Uh, Ken, if non-Muslims complain they're grossed out (potential transfers there) and custodians must spend time and supplies cleaning up, it's a business and practical decision both to install footwashing facilities. Now, extend this situation to public elementary and secondary schools where the bill would permit religious groups to gather for prayer DURING the school day, and such problems go K-12. Schools would have little choice but to spend taxpayers' money for religious purposes at the lower levels, too. Do you understand our point now?
|
|